I made a follow up call to Ann-Kristin Horvei on the 20th April 1998. Ann-Kristin Horvei was Heidi's best friend in the early 1980s.
F. Yeah, hi Ann-Kristin, it's Freddy.
A-K. Oh, hello.
F. I rang you a couple of weeks ago and also a week ago. Have you been on holiday?
F. Oh, well I just missed you then. Do you know Heidi's had another baby?
A-K. Oh, did she? When?
F. I think a year ago - a boy I think it's called David.
A-K. All these things you know!
F. Yeah, well I've tried to talk to her neighbours and they
A-K. Does she still live in Drammen?
F. Yeah, she lives in Solbergmoen she lives in one big house and there are two families and I asked the neighbours to go and get Heidi and they won't even speak to me in English. They pretend not to speak English and just called me a "fucking idiot" and put the phone down, but they don't like me at all because I suppose Heidi's telling them that I'm you know, everything under the sun. But when you were still friends with Heidi at that time, what did she have to say about did she say that I've raped her, to you?
F. I wonder why. I mean she's your friend and she would have told you wouldn't she?
A-K. Yes, but I don't know, er - no, I don't know.
F. Did she tell you about the Bergen shopkeeper?
A-K. Yes, I think she told me, yeah, yeah, but I have told you, yes, but not about you so when you told me er when you called me last time for an hour that you told me that you have sex with Heidi that is new for me I never heard about that.
F. Oh yeah when you see
A-K. I don't think you have told me that before.
F. Didn't I?
[And later, regarding the 1998 rape allegation I discussed the matter with Ann-Kristin:-]
F. And she told the police that I've held her down. Now no one can hold Heidi
down, having sex. If Heidi doesn't want to have sex with someone
a strong girl and there's no bloody way unless you're holding a knife or a gun
to her head. I know Heidi's strong and she's a
liar. There's no way that
happened. And that is why the story: I got so angry that I thought I've had
enough of these bloody lies and I told lots of her neighbours - the neighbours
where she'd lived before and unfortunately one of the neighbours was a photographer
and he gave the information to a journalist and the journalist couldn't believe
and she and Gudmund Johannessen had two AIDS tests each
after Daniel was born.
F. Oh yeah, after after Daniel was born.
A-K. Not after she was pregnant?
F. No, no if I remember
A-K. Here in Norway all people will be check they take of everyone.
F. Yeah, I know that but what Heidi told me was that and I remember her words - that she was "worried for Daniel".
A-K. But not the father. They don't check the father.
F. But in this case she told me that both herself and Gudmund Johannessen had two, two AIDS tests each and her words were that she was "not worried for herself" she was "more worried for Daniel" in case, you see, so I'm not making this up about Johannessen's heroin taking, because she told me he'd bought the heroin when he was on a trip to China.
F. And that I knew he smoked cannabis because he smoked it in front of me, and um knowing Johannessen as I do, it didn't surprise me he was injecting heroin, and the rest of it that I wrote to Heidi's father because he's the father, he's responsible for her life and I also knew he didn't like me and I wanted to say look man if you don't like me then um you know
A-K. Can I ask you for something?
A-K. Heidi's mother. She was dead. When and why did she die? Do you know that?
F. Well, I asked you didn't I? I asked you why and the information All I knew Heidi told me that when I went to see Heidi in 1990 for the second time 'cos I went twice the first time in February I got arrested the second time everything was sorted out and I sat with her and we hugged and cuddled and she told me that her mother was "in hell" Heidi had supposedly found God and she told me that her mother was in hell because she was always taking pills, drinking and trying to kill herself. And I didn't actually go on to ask her how she died in detail, but I asked you once and you told me you thought she or was it Heidi that her mother fell and hit her head and had a brain a blood clot on the brain or something like this
A-K. Yes [agreeing].
F. But I talked to you about this before and you weren't quite sure but that's all I know is that they got divorced parents were divorced and the mother was in a dreadful state pills, drinking and I'm afraid also she's got two sisters, Heidi, and there's one of them the one that now lives in Egersund. Heidi told me that she would've killed herself if she hadn't had her children. And she's on doctor's prescription pills, tablets for depression. Because her husband and her had divorced. So it's something they turn to drink and pills and that's why Heidi tried twice to kill herself with pills. But why do you ask about her mother?
A-K. I only have think about it and wondering.
A-K. But they didn't write about you in England?
F. They didn't write about me in England 'cos no one knew it was me. But I think, you never know. It could've got out into the newspapers in England. It's something that they like to write about and I suppose I'm lucky. But Heidi has to be taught a lesson I like that boy Daniel very very, very much and he liked me very much and he was telling everybody his neighbours
A-K. I see Daniel last summer.
F. You did?
A-K. Yes me and my children we are playing out and there was yep play station or something and I know; you know Gudmund he is living here in Åsane and Nina, Gudmund's wife, her sister is living er yes in a place here where we are. I saw there was a boy and Gudmund was there and he have a football T-shirt and Daniel is [written] on back and I saw him he looks like Gudmund yes it was him.
F. Did you say hello to Daniel?
A-K. No, no, no.
F. He doesn't know you?
A-K. Oh, no, no, no.
F. I have seen him.
A-K. So I think Daniel is visiting his father for holidays.
F. But you haven't seen Heidi?
A-K. No, no, no I've not have seen Heidi. Last time I saw her it was 17th May, Norwegian National Day, and I think it must be oh my God hundreds of years ago.
F. Yeah, I remember you telling me she was dressed in green.
A-K. Yes, not in nice clothes for a National Day.
F. No, that's right - she's obviously unhappy at the time.
A-K. Very many years ago.
F. But I haven't seen Daniel since August 1990 and I am not going to have written in the newspapers that I have threatened to kill him. And I've asked where's the evidence and Heidi told the police that I wrote in a letter saying that I will kill Daniel and how old was he? Two! Two years old. And what's happened to this letter? Heidi said she gave it to Gudmund Johannessen's parents who gave it to the police so the policewoman in Drammen phoned the Bergen police to ask where the letter is No one kept a photocopy and so I have to
A-K. There are not a letter.
F. Well, I know I didn't write a letter so it looks I've asked for my lawyer to get in touch with Gudmund Johannessen's parents to ask them about this allegation. It's a dangerous thing to do because they could lie - because they don't like me, Johannessen's parents, because I think they went to the police. They are all very unhappy you see because they didn't know that Heidi had had abortions; they didn't know that Gudmund Johannessen had got Heidi pregnant with twins and that she miscarried. They didn't know any of this and
A-K. If it's true.
A-K. I don't know.
F. Did Heidi tell you that she was having twins? Pregnant with twins? This was before I knew you. She said she tried to take her life in maybe July at er um July 1984. In July 1984 she got pregnant with twins to Gudmund Johannessen; he slept with her best friend Heidi found out and miscarried and tried to commit suicide by taking pills, but her sister found her and took her to the hospital and she had her stomach pumped. It was maybe for two weeks she said she wasn't washing, she wasn't eating. Now she was below your parents' place Heidi was living below your parents' home - you remember, in 1983?
A-K. Eating or and
F. Not eating nor washing - she'd just tried to kill herself
A-K. For two weeks?
F. Yeah and she wasn't eating, washing well maybe she was eating a little bit but her she'd given up. Do you remember any of this?
A-K. No, I remember that she told me the thing about the twins.
F. Ah, so that's true.
A-K. I don't know!
F. But she told you
A-K. I have listened but er but should I believe her? I don't know, maybe.
F. 'Cos she told me also about the twins and I definitely believed her because of the way she told me. You know 'cos one evening she introduced me to Gudmund Johannessen. She just said quietly, "That's the boy I told you about" and she just said "It was twins". And you know I thought "What the hell are you doing with him now? Why are you introducing why is he near you?" Do you think it's true? Do you think she's lying?
A-K. I don't know.
F. Obviously she must have lied to you about other things or else you wouldn't suspect she's lying. What things? Has she lied to you before?
A-K. About what?
F. Anything - anything that's quite serious.
A-K. No I can't remember something.
F. So why do you think she may be lying about the twins? Why?
A-K. I don't know the story was yeah
F. What? Did it sound too far fetched?
F. Did it sound um you know that
A-K. It was so er
A-K. Yes and I remember myself when I was in her yes 16 and you was in love and a boy, yes it was finished and you find, yes
F. Someone else? [I added quickly]
A-K. Fantasy. No! No, the fantasy, er O.K. you find a liar.
A-K. I remember when I was young yes and when I was young I remember myself I don't tell anything correct. You understand what I mean? When I was young I lie for myself and lie for my friends you know when I was very young yes so when I have a story I maybe think maybe it's a lie because myself in that time when I was young I can tell somebody a story it was not true. Maybe something was little true but you know and er but I don't know if that story of Heidi is that true. But she had never told me she would kill herself - never. And you told me much of time she want to do it.
F. Twice she tried.
A-K. Twice, yes.
F. Twice she tried.
A-K. She have never told me.
F. Well she told me things
A-K. I remember when I was in her when I was very young, I do the same. I'm not trying to kill but I told people [trouble with] my boyfriend oh oh I don't want to live anymore it was not true.
F. She actually told me she took the pills the thing is you see in her circumstances it was serious because if she got pregnant with twins and your boyfriend sleeps with your best friend and you miscarry, then a lot of girls are going to be seriously affected, mentally they're going to feel terrible. That's why I believe she and I still believe it but I never spoke to her parents about this but her stepmother told me not to believe everything.
A-K. Told you, you shouldn't believe her?
F. She told me in general don't believe everything Heidi tells you.
F. But the thing is her stepmother was worried about the things Heidi was telling me probably about her. 'Cos Heidi told me her stepmother was sleeping with lots of men in America where she was a model, OK and I once actually asked the mother about this. I wrote to the mother saying Heidi's been saying all this about you and then her son, Christian, he wrote back a letter threatening me with er [at which point A-K broke off to help her child put a coat on to go out, then we resumed some chit chat] [and later]:
F. Yours is the only relationship that's lasted. Everyone else I know lets say many other people I know in Norway they're all divorced and separated. They're beginning on second marriages and
A-K. All the people I know, my friends they are married with the same man and much of children and happy Do you remember the boy? Bjorn-Morten he was a very nice boy.
F. The one who was a model?
A-K. Yes, he was very pretty.
F. I remember him
A-K. I remember I think Heidi was with him she start to meeting Gudmund again and then he find out Heidi was with Gudmund but after that he meet a friend of me one of my best friends now and they married and she, the wife, had one kid with another man for many years ago and they tried to get kids and they don't get kids and then they go to hospital and get some help. So after some time they get four kids.
F. Oh, Jesus Christ! All at once, and they all lived?
A-K. Yes - four kids and I think they are six years old.
F. How old is the wife?
A-K. She is 35.
F. The same age as the man. Well if you see him give him my regards. I'm sure he remembers me.
A-K. Yes, I think so
F. He remembers me and a lot of people must
A-K. I think I have say something to him about you when you have called me up.
F. 'Cos what happened was that when I went to see Heidi the first time, she wanted me to go home after one day in the Christmas I met you because I didn't want to stay up all night talking to her friends. And I think one of them was him this boy whatever his name is, and a few days later Heidi told me that she likes him and they spent half an hour or an hour in the car in his car trying to sort something [a future together] out but then she told me it wasn't going to happen and I couldn't understand why 'cos she wasn't with Gudmund at the time, you know, when I saw her the first time she didn't like him anymore, Gudmund, you see, and so she was free so but that boy if he thinks that Heidi was still with Gudmund then he's not right, he's wrong. Heidi had finished with Gudmund. Why did he think that Gudmund was still with Heidi?
A-K. I don't know, but I think Heidi must have been pregnant so maybe she
F. No, not
A-K. Yes, she must have been pregnant when she was with, er
F. Not in 19 not when [I was going to say '84 the Christmas visit of mine].
A-K. She must have been having sex with Gudmund when she was with this boy, because after that he is wondering "Oh my God, could I be the father to the boy because later if you are counting up the months "
F. Did he sleep with Heidi?
A-K. Yes, they was together a few months I think.
A-K. In that time.
F. In 1984? [I actually meant 1985].
A-K. I don't remember the year, but in that time
F. But after I
A-K. After the wondering Oh my God could he be the father, because he not could get babies
A-K. He have problems. They don't find out why. He don't could have babies, normal.
F. He's infertile? His sperm
A-K. It was nothing wrong with he, it was nothing wrong with her, but she have get baby before some people are not er so they was married many many years before they go to get some help in hospital he was boyfriend with Heidi.
F. So what happened was you see I'm a bit confused because I saw you at that Christmas and Heidi had told me she liked that boy and wanted to have a relationship with him they were going to try the last week in December of 1984 when I visit you in Bergen for the first time but
A-K. She was boyfriend with him when we was in England [which was summer 1985].
F. Oh was she?
A-K. Yes, I think she was.
F. So she must have been sleeping with Gudmund and him at the same time?
F. Yeah well I didn't know that because Gudmund he's the father is he? Definitely?
A-K. Yes, yes.
F. That's for sure?
A-K. Yes, you can see it when you see Daniel.
F. I see, so, yes that's news to me. Ah! God! that's quite shocking that I didn't know that at all.
A-K. It's not shocking.
F. Well for me it is because so after I left at Christmas Heidi must have gone back to see this what's his name?
F. Gone back to see him and then they started having sex so why did she have sex with Gudmund at the same time? Why did she do this ?
A-K. That is love Frederick that is love.
F. So she loved two boys at the same time?
A-K. Maybe she like Bjorn-Morten, she like him very much, but when the right man is
A-K. Maybe she can't say no you can't understand it. Nobody can understand it that's life.
F. I know Heidi's slept with a lot of men. Would it be possible, you know, if it was necessary for you to come to Court just to tell me these things?
F. Could you come to Court in Norway in Drammen if my lawyer wants you to help me to give your opinion 'cos I need someone basically to help me, just to say that I'm not er
A-K. What shall I tell them?
F. Just tell them these things about Heidi that you've told me today 'cos a lot of people believed the newspapers. A lot of people have thought "I'm sure that what has been printed is true" If it was necessary just to come along and say I would ask you questions in Court myself and you would have to basically say the truth; how you felt it wouldn't be difficult. Could you do this, if necessary? I'm certainly going to try and take Heidi to Court in Norway, because I find what she's done is so unforgivable to call me you know, 13 years of sex terror when it wasn't me. It was Gudmund Johannessen that caused the trouble as well as Heidi and about being a Muslim as well the Muslim man.
A-K. You are still a Muslim?
F. Yeah, of course I am. I've always been a Muslim, I always will be but
A-K. Do you practice?
F. Yeah, yeah, I pray, fast, don't drink, yeah.
A-K. Oh, maybe I'm a Muslim too, I do not drink.
F. Well, that's nice to hear. But it's too important and I don't think people should get away with these lies it's very upsetting you see Heidi when she became a Christian, after Gudmund beat her up I thought maybe she's changed but her kind of Christianity is perverse. It's pretty sick. She says she was exorcised from the Devil and spoke in tongues and her husband
A-K. Who's speaking in tongues, her husband?
F. Yeah, he spoke to me in tongues over the phone.
A-K. Yes, but is that correct or was he having some fun with you?
F. No, I think it was absolutely the case because two weeks later they had a programme on television in England [Everyman broadcast from Manchester] and I heard exactly the same things the same accent the same way of speaking, and he says to me "Allah doesn't exist come to Jesus only he can save you". He hates Muslims Heidi believes that I'm going to go to hell. A lot of Christians think that if you aren't Christian you'll go to hell because you don't believe Jesus is the son of God. She sent me a book in 1990 about a woman a Pakistani woman who became a Christian and Heidi wanted me to become a Christian and I know that she said I could come and live in Norway and, I, actually - to be honest with you both of us were thinking of trying for marriage. She ordered the book from England to Norway and then she sent it to me here. I read and it was such a load of rubbish [and later]:
A-K. You think there will be a case?
F. I don't know, I hope so, I'm trying for it.
A-K. Here in Norway?
F. Yeah, I have to go to Norway. But you see I have told hundreds of people in Norway now about Heidi I publicised my side of the case in a big big way. I can't understand how even Gudmund Johannessen's wife, Nina, I mean she won't speak to me, she puts the phone down and gets very angry I don't know how she can marry Gudmund Johannessen, I really can't believe
A-K. He's not the same one, in that time you know him.
F. Oh, no, but the point is, a lot of people change but I'm not interested in what they've become, I'm interested in the trouble they cause at the time when they're young. Because it's when you're young and you're full of sexual power that you go sleeping with lots of woman, like Gudmund did and that's the reason for all the problems from that behaviour at the time. It's no good learning your lessons afterwards you mustn't do them in the first place because if Heidi tries to kill herself twice and all the rest of it, it doesn't matter what Gudmund Johannessen becomes afterwards. He's been to prison. Did Heidi tell you he's been to prison?
A-K. No, maybe he do something wrong when he was in the military.
F. Yeah, that's right he did.
A-K. Not in prison. We don't call it "in prison" when you are in military. But there are a sort of prison in military. But it's not
F. Yeah, it's a military detention or something. Yeah, but you see what these people have done what Heidi's done and everyone else and the newspapers and the lies it's all the same thing. It's all "We hate Freddy We hate the Muslim he's a love-sick fanatic" and that's precisely the reason I'm not married because being Muslim is being shit and not wanted. No-one wants anything to do with the Muslim man. No-one wants to marry him because I know and I was told that people in Norway are taught at school and it's part of the culture that Muslims should be left alone Muslims are wrong and Heidi told me this years ago that her parents would be furious if she married a Muslim and she wrote and told me in a letter that they were discussing Islam in school and how the Muslim men treat the women like shit and how, Heidi told me that
A-K. Yes, that's the thing we hear.
F. Yeah, that's right, you see and maybe some of that does happen. It certainly does happen in the Middle East a lot; a lot of men aren't kind to their women, but the thing with me is that it's not me I'm not one of them and also a lot of Norwegian men are not kind to their women. People like Gudmund. And it's very unfair to 'cos after all Heidi wrote to me she loved me at one stage, she wanted to marry me on two different occasions so it's not as if I am out of bounds.
A-K. Do you think there are many people like Gudmund?
F. Yes, I think there are quite a few because and I think there are many of women the same let's face it, there are a lot of men who've slept with a lot of women a lot of sexual partners there's a lot of divorce a lot of suicide in Norway, depression
A-K. I don't know any of them.
F. Well, I heard that maybe ten people a year commit suicide in Drammen for every five pregnancies in Norway there is one termination so things aren't so wonderful in Norway I've tried with other girls in Norway and they don't like Muslims that is absolutely clear to me.
A-K. Yes [agreeing].
F. And they treat me like shit. I have to fight to prove to people that I'm not shit that I'm a human being and I'm worthy of being looked upon on as a human being, suitable to marry someone from Europe, as I live in Europe and I cannot have the newspapers saying that Muslims are shit, and that I personally threaten to kill a young boy I cannot have this, so I must wipe the past out and establish the facts and the truth. I know it's going to be difficult for me now so at least I have to get some satisfaction from correcting the rubbish that's been spoken about me. Especially as Daniel liked me very much. I'm sure he'd been horrified so upset to see what his mother has been saying about me. I think Heidi is evil really wicked to try and ruin me.
(and later) Heidi wrote to me and I have the letter in my cupboard where Heidi admits to having had abortions and it was you you know about Heidi's abortions? You knew about them didn't you?
A-K. Only this twins story so I don't know
[so I explained the background and referred to the two abortions]
A-K. And you believe it?
F. I do believe it, although
A-K. All this abortion you believe?
F. There's two abortions and a miscarriage of twins
A-K. Oh, that's much.
F. I personally believe it's true. I'm convinced it's true but the thing is I know some people lie
F. But Heidi told me one of her sisters did lie about having an abortion.
F. I don't know which sister lied; she said she [the sister] had an abortion but she didn't.
F. And I can't remember what the reason was, the circumstances.
A-K. One upset her.
F. Do you know about this?
A-K. No but when you're telling me I say the same thing, when I was very young I can say about abortion - it was lie.
F. It's easy to find out.
A-K. There must be some papers in the hospital.
F. I tell you another reason I do believe, because she told me she went to hospital the second time and the nurses treated her the nurses were very angry with Heidi for coming in again.
A-K. It was the same nurse?
F. It was the same hospital and they would know about the previous abortion so she said "The nurses were very angry with me" oh coming in again pregnant wanting a second abortion. She said her stepmother called her "a whore" so that's why I believe it I assumed that because Heidi wrote and told me she is telling the truth do you not believe her?
A-K. No I tell you that because I only know myself and there was something maybe me and Heidi could have so yes we have the same things
F. Did you tell people that you would have abortions yourself when you didn't?
A-K. Yes, I do when I was 14 or 15 maybe
F. Oh you did. But you didn't have abortions?
A-K. No, no, no, no. I was not pregnant - nothing.
F. But why did you tell them this?
A-K. Only I think I was together with a boy I must be 16 17 because I have a boyfriend one year after one year I should still be going to school in another town and I come into the school and all the things were OK and he asked me "Oh no, drop the school and come and live here in Bergen. So we can, er being seeing each other every day" and I was in love OK and I dropped this school I don't go this second year I have take one year and come back to him and after one week the school starts he dropped me it was finished and I was so angry because one year of my school I can't go back to this school because I have left so I must only find me a little work or something I was so angry because he only was finished.
F. You wanted to get revenge or something?
F. You wanted to get revenge?
A-K. Yes, yes. I call people so he know, my friends how I do that, so everyone should believe it I should go to take this abortion, I go to take the bus up to the hospital and sit there for many hours only for fun and I take the bus away so if somebody has seen me or something I was very desperate that time and do much other things later now I grew up and OK. I can laugh and think now but that is the only thing, maybe she is lying, maybe because I know myself could do it.