Conversation with Ingunn Røren, journalist with Drammens Tidende, at her home on 25th March 1996:-

A man answered.
F. Yes, hello good evening. Is … I presume it's your wife, Ingunn Røren.
Man Er OK.
F. The journalist? Yeah?
Man The journalist. One moment [He speaks in Norwegian to Ingunn Røren].
IR. Hello.
F. Yes, Hi there Ingunn, it's Frederick here, sorry to phone you at your home.
IR. Ah, huh.
F. It's just that about three weeks ago I had your article translated into English and see that you've written that I've threatened to kill Heidi's son.
IR. That you?
F. …… threatened to kill Heidi's son.
IR. Yes according to Heidi.
F. You wrote that yeah, and you believe her do you?
IR. I'm not sure but that's what she said and I'm not saying that you did, but I'm saying that's what she said you did.
F. Cos, I certainly didn't and there's no way that you should print this without er … you can't print this stuff without some evidence. You know she's been in a psychiatric unit, you know her past because you had those letters [my fact sheet] translated into Norwegian.
IR. Yes.
F. And it's just disgraceful. And my mother has never wanted to put me in a mental hospital and you could have checked that out easily. That's an obvious lie to make because her parents wanted to put her in a psychiatric unit when she was a teenager.
IR. But how come you're still so interested in Heidi?
F. Because I've just discovered what you've printed.
IR. Yes, but I thought you read that a long time ago.
F. No, no, no I didn't. I only read one article which was … …
IR. Yeah, but I've only written one article.
F. No, it was in all the newspapers. It was in Bergens Tidende and that's what I had translated. Only four weeks ago did I have your article translated and it's just as well isn't it? It's a good thing that I know what you've written about me and that I've threatened to kill her neighbours, her, her family … I've written 400 obscene letters … it's all rubbish. And you know perfectly well it's rubbish and you know also the reason I sent those books on Aids and Abortion is because she slept with someone taking heroin - she knew she could catch Aids; she knew she was putting herself at risk and she had two abortions.
IR. What's that to me?
F. Because I bloody well slept with her while she was ………
IR. Yeah, but that's your problem.
F. Yeah, but it's also her fault as well. It's my problem for sure but you should know the reason why I sent those letters, to try and teach her a lesson. You've printed something that's totally misled the public just to get a sexy….
IR. Yes, but if you have a problem with that, you have to contact the editor.
F. Yeah, I will contact the editor … but she [Heidi] doesn't even want to contact the police. She's avoiding them because they haven't closed the case yet and they don't believe her.
IR. She has contacted the police and they do believe her.
F. They don't believe her.
IR. They do.
F. When was the last time she spoke to the police then? She has never spoken to Torill … … never!
IR. She has spoken to Nedre Eiker [Torill's station], the police in the community where she's living… She has spoken to them and they have a report on you.
F. You gave me her number [Torill Sorte's].
IR. Yes.
F. And Svein Jensen told me he doesn't believe her but they have to let Torill speak to her and Torill has been trying to get in touch with her for months and Heidi's avoiding them.
IR. That's not what I've heard. If you have a problem with what I wrote you have to contact the editor.
F. Yeah I will contact the editor, but …
IR. It's his responsibility.
F. Yeah, but you wrote the story.
IR. But it's his responsibility. He is the one who selects what to print and what not to print.
F. Well OK, when the police have…. She's not bringing a case … I mean ten months [since the newspapers came out]… I wish she would bring a case so I can show her up in Court, because she's got no evidence. There's no 400 [obscene] letters - she destroyed them all [so Heidi told the newspapers] and you'd have thought she'd have kept them wouldn't you for her case?
IR. I've seen some old letters and she has not destroyed them. [I was specifically referring to the 400 obscene letters every single one of which Heidi said she destroyed as per Verdens Gang report of 26.5.1995 but Ingunn Røren misunderstood me and referred to other letters I'd written].
F. And what's wrong with the letters; what have I said in the letters that's so bad?
IR. There were lots of things but that's your problem; you have to take it up with Heidi.
F. Yeah, I will take it up with Heidi but also I'll take it up with you when I pay you a visit and if I have to bring the police with me I will so help me God; you're not gonna get away with this. You didn't print my name either did you? Why's that?
IR. What,- I didn't … … …
F. Why didn't you print my name in the newspapers if it's all true?
IR. Why should I?
F. Because every other newspaper does if they've got their facts right.
IR. Yeah, but if you still have a problem on this, please call the editor.
F. I will call the editor, but you are going to have to face me even if I get the police and I'll get their blessing first … I'll ask them first.
IR. I don't think you'll get it.
F. I think I will because they said to me that they cannot contact the newspapers themselves but I can and I will say to them - "Look, I'm gonna go round there and you're welcome to be at the front door when I do" and if they don't want to be there then I'll face you and your bloody editor and you try and deal with us, O.K. because you're not getting away with it …
IR. Call the editor.
F. Yeah, I'll call the editor but you are the one that wrote the story. It's you …
IR. He's the one [the editor] who's responsible and his name is Odde and you have to call him at work tomorrow.
F. Yeah, I'll certainly do that but don't you worry, you're not gonna get away with it…
IR. Yes, yes, yes, bye bye.
F. Yeah, piss off you bitch!!

The next day I telephoned Mr. Strand, another editor at Drammens Tidende: -
Answer "Drammens Tidende", a woman responded.
F. It's your editor I'd like to speak to … what's his name?
Answer Yes, wait a minute … Hans Arne Odde
[then after a minute's wait] I couldn't find him - he's in a meeting.
F. Has he got a secretary?
Answer I shall try; just a moment please [and I was then put through to her].
F. Hello, good morning. I was wondering when your editor Hans Odde …
Secretary Yes, just a moment please [and I was put through to a man].
F. Yes, hi, good morning. Are you Hans the editor?
S. I am one of the editors, yes. [But not the Chief Editor, Hans Odde. This chap was a Mr. Strand].
F. Oh one of the editors. My name's Frederick, and you did a story on me last May about Heidi Munchausen and I had that article translated only four weeks ago and it's obviously calculated to give me a lot of trouble, especially as you've written that I've attempted [I should have said 'threatened'] to kill that girl's son, all his neighbours and all the other stuff which is all complete rubbish and I wanted to speak to the editor who allowed this idiot- Ingunn Røren- to first of all believe that stuff and secondly your editor [who] allowed it to be printed because you should've known that the girl who made those accusations has been in a mental hospital. So I want to speak to your editor just to see how this was allowed to happen.
S. I have never spoken to you before but I think you have been speaking to another of the editors and you have been speaking to this reporter.
F. Yes, I spoke to her yesterday.
S. So I know you have been in touch with many of our people.
F. Yeah, that's right because what you've done is upside down and you should've known before that this girl was all about because you had reports in Norwegian that all her neighbours received. Now she's been telling lies and trying basically to get me put in prison by making up all sorts of rubbish - that I've tried to rape her; that I've tried [I meant threatened] to kill her, her neighbours, her son, her family; that I've written 400 obscene letters and thank God that the police, now, do not believe her … and in fact she's avoiding them. I want to know how your story could possibly be printed, it's so…. I know you have to try and get sexy stories.
S. No … …
F. And all the rest of it … …
S. We don't have to.
F. I cannot understand, when you knew beforehand the girl was in a psychiatric unit and all the problems that she's had and yet you go and print this stuff … if it wasn't for the evidence I'd kept … if I didn't keep some of her letters … I only kept a few…. The rest I threw away…. But I kept a few and thank God I did because the police have read them. I want to try and prosecute her … but I must first of all discover how you come to print this story. I'm phoning so many months later because it was only four weeks ago that I had your particular article translated and I'd never read before that I've [threatened] to kill her son and I want to know from you what day I made this threat; whether I made it in a letter, a phone call whether she told her neighbours; whether she reported this threat to the police straight away. I want to know these facts.
S. I have no comment on that.
F. Yeah, that's right. I'm not gonna let this go because that girl, like so many people in your country, ruins lives …… those love letters that she sent me that you've got obviously disprove that I've been terrorising her for thirteen years, so I need to speak to the person who allowed your reporter to print and if I can I will have your people in Court.
S. OK.
F. I understand your chief editor is Hans …Odde. Is he free at the moment?
S. No, he's not - he's in a meeting.
F. So, when the police have finished, once they can find Heidi to talk to, I will ring you again and ask you to give them a call so that we can get to the bottom of this story, but I bet you won't print anything will you … you won't print the truth … the fact of what her past is and what she's done, will you? You'll just keep quiet.
S. We'll try to print what is true - yes for sure we will.
F. Well that's good to hear. That's nice to hear. OK. Well what I will do…… if you can speak to your editor and tell him… … once I've spoken to Torill Sorte and Svein Jensen in the Nedre Eiker police - once they've interviewed Heidi, I will then be in touch with you and you can ring the police so that we can have their conclusions.
S. What are the names of these policemen?
F. Torill [Sorte] and Svein Jensen - they are the Nedre Eiker police and the only reason I knew about them is because Ingunn Røren gave me their phone number and their phone number is (32) 878170. Torill tells me that with Heidi - "Every time I try and get in touch with her, her husband calls me to say they want to drop the case". Now if I have been threatening anyone's lives …I've been writing 400 obscene letters, making filthy phone calls … and you say my mother wanted to put me in a mental hospital, that I do obscene things in front of her [Heidi] and I make her watch, then that should be enough of a case shouldn't it to go to the Courts don't you? Don't you think so if it's true?
S. Well, I will not comment on that. All stories have at least er two … …
F. Sides to it. You knew her past. You knew she was sleeping with someone taking heroin.
S. I didn't.
F. No, no, but the editor did because all those ... I sent literally hundreds and hundreds of those Norwegian articles [my fact sheet] to everyone in Norway. Hundreds of people, everyone under the sun cos I'm sick and tired of being accused of attempting to rape someone. I'd never do this. She's been raped … she was raped by a Bergen shopkeeper in the 1980s. She was beaten up by her boyfriend in 1990 … anyway someone in your office knew about her past. They had the whole picture and they said it was false … they said I'd been making false accusations and course comments - none of it was false. I'm a lawyer and so help me God I would not tell a single lie.
S. What did you say your name is? .
F. Roth. What's your name by the way?
S. S -T -R -A- N- D. [He spelt it out for me]
F. Mr. Strand?
S. Yeah.
F. OK, it's very kind of you to be patient enough to talk to me cos I'm afraid I did lose my temper yesterday evening - well I didn't lose my temper except at the very end with Ingunn Røren.
S. She felt a little threatened.
F. I will call again once the police have finished with Heidi.
S. Yep OK.
F. Bye bye.
S. Bye bye

Telephone conversation with Ingunn Røren in June 1996:-
IR. Hello.
F. Yes, hi, good morning, is that Ingunn?
IR. Yes.
F. Yes, hi. It's Frederick here from England.
IR. Mmm.
F. I understand that you've tried to call the police last week.
TS. Yes, I did.
F. Oh, when?
IR. Not last week, the week before.
F. Er OK, well er the lady, the policewoman, Torill Sorte, I spoke to her yesterday and she told me that she hadn't in fact spoken to you. You phoned last week.
IR. Maybe it was last week, I don't know.
F. Yeah, that's right, she says she hasn't spoken to you yet but I spoke to her yesterday and they have found no evidence at all about any death threats to her son. Heidi specifically said that I made these threats in letters which …
IR. According to the policewoman, the investigation's not over yet so …
F. Well it is over in the sense that she will write to Heidi to say that there's no death threats to her son in letters - that's a big lie, there's … …
IR. That's not what she told me.
F. Huh?
IR. That's not what the policewoman told me.
F. Well I spoke to her yesterday.
IR. Yeah, but I have spoken to her several times and that's not what she's telling me.
F. What's she told you?
IR. She's told me a few things I can't tell you but the investigation is still going on so she can't speak about everything. You're still under investigation.
F. Well she told me specifically yesterday that she will write to Heidi saying that there is nothing … I mean I spoke to her yesterday and she said …
IR. Yeah, OK, when I see that letter I'll believe that.
F. Yeah, well why don't you give her a ring? Give her a ring now. You know her name's Torill Sorte and she specifically said to me … …
IR. Yeah, OK, I can do that.
F. OK but Heidi told [you] that I have made death threats to her son.
IR. Yes.
F. She told the police that. And the police asked her "Where's the evidence?" And Heidi said "In letters he wrote which the Bergen police have"
IR. OK I'll ask her.
F. OK. But the Bergen police have spoken to Torill Sorte and she has said that there is absolutely nothing whatsoever in any letters indicating death threats to her son or her neighbours. And there's no obscene letters, nothing, so you know you are gonna have to print some apology eventually.
IR. If it's true what you told me now I'll speak to the police and then decide what to do.
F. OK, speak to the police and I will give you a call back - when can I give you a call back?
IR. Today I'm leaving. I'm going to work with another … a murder case.
F. You're leaving the newspaper?
IR. Not leaving for good, I'm travelling.
F. Well can I call you back in say an hour?
IR. No, I'm leaving the building, so I won't be here today.
F. So when's best to call you?
IR. Maybe on Friday.
F. Friday?
IR. Yes.
F. OK. What she did say is that if Heidi comes up with some new evidence, then they may do something, but she says she doubts very much - well Heidi would have come up with new evidence by now but the point I'm trying to make - I know you don't like me, but the point is you've been conned; you've been lied to by that girl and I'm very surprised that - you knew she was in a psychiatric unit [as I assumed she saw the report in Norwegian specifying the B.S.S. Clinic]
IR. No I didn't.
F. Oh, you didn't know that before [i.e. before Heidi was interviewed by the newspaper].
IR. I don't think she is.
F. Well why don't you ring her doctor, Dr. Broch? His name is Dr. Broch at the B.S.S. …
IR. Why do you still care about all this?
F. Because I want to clear my name, that's why.
IR. I haven't written your name.
F. No, no. I want to clear my name in the sense … I know you haven't written my name, but you've accused me of things that I haven't done and … why don't you ask Heidi about the allegations she's made to them [and I was going to add about a Bergen shopkeeper attempting to rape her but Ingunn Røren interrupted].
IR. I don't care about Heidi; what you say about her. I don't care.
F. But, I mean don't you believe me?
IR. No I don't.
F. Oh you don't believe my story?
IR. No I don't.
F. What specifically don't you believe?
IR. I've tried to tell you this before and my editor has tried to tell you this and I will give the police a call; that's all I'm going to do.
F. But can you … you must try and appreciate that I must try and understand why you don't believe me, because you can simply ring up her doctor, Broch. His name's Dr. Broch. Ring him up at the B.S.S Psychiatric Clinic. She stayed there in 1988.
IR. What's the point about that? 1988.
F. Yeah, because you don't believe she's been in a Unit. She's a sick woman.
IR. Even if she's been in there, she's out again.
F. Yeah, but she's still sick.
IR. That's not our business.
F. No, but you have …
IR. I don't have the time any more. I'll give the police a call about all this talk.
F. Oh, all right then, I'll call you Friday, bye bye.
IR. Bye bye.

On the 14th July 1998 I was sitting at home in the morning wondering why I still hadn't received my first letter yet from my lawyer Karsten Gjone. So I decided to call him. He said he still hadn't managed to send me a letter but he had in front of him at that very moment a copy of that morning's local newspaper, Drammens Tidende, in which he said I was featured on the front page and again inside. So I asked what it said and instead of telling me even the gist of it, he said he'd put a copy of the article in the post to me. I asked him why he hadn't yet written to me and he said he'd now have to wait until I read the article. Great! It meant getting the whole damn thing translated.
Furious, I phoned Ingunn Røren the Drammens Tidende journalist who wrote the story (14.7.1998)

IR. Ya, Ingunn.
F. Yes, hi Ingunn, it's Frederick Roth here.
IR. Yes, hello.
F. Hi, I see you did a story today.
IR. Yes, I did.
F. Yeah, good, so I'll be getting the newspaper from my lawyer and if you've said anything that's rubbish I shall look forward to seeing you in Court.
IR. That's OK.
F. What have you said then?
IR. Hm?
F. What have you said?
IR. In the story?
F. Mmm
IR. You have to read it.
F. Look, for fucks sake, I'm phoning you up to ask you what you've said. Are you some kind of idiot? What did you say?
IR. I just printed a story.
F. What the fuck was it? Are you dumb or something? Are you scared? What did you say?
IR. I'm not scared.
F. Yes you are, well say something.
IR. If your lawyers are sending you the newspapers, you can read it yourself.
F. `Yeah, but I have to translate the whole damn thing first, all right. It's a pity I found her [i.e. Heidi's] phone number isn't it. I suppose that's why er [you did a repeat story]… because none of you will answer the questions but I will see you in Court. And it will continue. You see if you think writing an article is gonna do anything it won't. The hundreds of letters [reports in Norwegian] and they're still going through - another 200 arrived this morning …
IR. 200 letters?
F. Yeah, 200, to everyone in Norway - all over with her photo, her past … [i.e. my report].
IR. Why would you wanna do that?
F. Well why do you want to do your article?
IR. Because you're sending all the letters.
F. And all because you're doing your articles. You said I threatened to kill her son, three years ago. You lying shit! I did not threaten to kill her son and her neighbours. Which neighbours? I haven't attempted to rape her. She's saying I've raped her now. I haven't raped her. So I send the fucking letters.
IR. She said that you tried to rape her.
F. No, she didn't. She told the police [this year in Mjøndalen] I've raped her, OK, raped her.
IR. She told me you tried to rape her.
F. She told the police … … [this year it was rape, I was about to add]
IR. It was an attempt to rape her.
F. She told the police I have raped her … she's a fucking liar. And if you can't understand - the girl's been in a psychiatric unit, then I feel sorry for you. You need to go in psychiatric unit yourself. You know, you think I'm gonna take all that crap and do nothing about it.
IR. You can do anything you like, yeah.
F. Oh, can I? Well I'll certainly sue you in Court. I'd like to see how you're gonna get out of it. Why not give my lawyer a ring?
IR. Who's your lawyer?
F. His name's Karsten Gjone. You can have his number.
IR. Can you spell it for me - the name?
F. Gjone, G J O N E. Karsten; and I'll give you his phone number 'cos he's in Drammen. He's had my papers since January.
IR. Yes.
F. (32) and then his number is 837818.
IR. 837818.
F. Yeah, that's right. He's had the papers for months and unfortunately as he's so busy in Court all the time he hasn't had time to do much. 'Cos I sent him the whole file from years and years - everything, with instructions to take you to Court. You personally, your editor and Drammens Tidende and Verdens Gang.
IR. Then I'll see you in Court.
F. Yeah, I will see you in Court. Anyway, your editor, where is he?
IR. My editor - why do you want him?
F. I want to speak to him obviously.
IR. Yeah but he's on vacation.
F. He's what?
IR. He's on vacation.
F. He's on vacation. So who allowed the story to go through?
IR. Hm?
F. Who allowed the story to be printed? You say the responsibility is always with your editor.
IR. Yes.
F. Yeah and who allowed it to go through?
IR. It's another editor.
F. What's his name?
IR. His name is Bjorn.
F. Bjorn?
IR. Dramdal.
F. How do you spell that?
IR. D-R-A-M-D-A-L
F. Bjorn Dramdal. OK. You photographed Heidi again?
IR. Hm?
F. You photographed Heidi again?
IR. No, it's an old picture
F. Oh, it's an old picture is it - so you've obviously gone round and interviewed her again have you?
IR. Hm?
F. You've obviously gone round and interviewed her again.
IR. No, I've just been spoken to her husband.
F. Oh her husband.
IR. Yes.
F. And not her. Oh, because the police are keeping quite a lot from her. They're not telling her the whole country [are being sent reports by me on her] - there must be a good few thousand of those letters now over the whole country and the process will continue.
IR. That's up to you.
F. Well it is up to me obviously, but you see you if you write a load of rubbish then obviously I have to "print" my own "newspaper".
IR. You think people want those letters?
F. Well, I think actually quite a few of them, I understand, are quite interested in the other side of the story.
IR. Because most of the people who get those letters they call us and ask us what it is. They want us to have them …
F. They ask you what it is but you thrust your rubbish in their faces with your newspapers and you present a story of lies.
IR. You have told me you are going to sue me last year or something, so now you have to sue me.
F. Well that's right, but when you phone my lawyer you will know he's had my papers since January and I …
IR. I'll give him a call.
F. I can't force him to issue proceedings. I keep telling him to get on with it but he's a busy man but you give him a call and you will see because if you think I'm not going to do it then think again, 'cos I certainly will because I know I'll win. So anyway, can you put me through to Bjorn Dramdal please?
IR. I'm sorry I can't do that from this phone. You have to phone to the paper.
F. All right I'll do that then. Bye.
IR. Bye.
I rang the main switchboard for the paper:-
F. Yes morning, Bjorn Dramdal please.
Answer Just a moment.
F. Thank you.
A man answered
F. Yes, morning, Bjorn Dramdal please.
BD. Er, who would you like to talk to?
F. I would say he's one of your editors, Dramdal.
BD. Yes, that's me.
F. Oh, that's you. Yes, hi there. Name's Frederick Roth. You did a story on me today, with Heidi Munchausen.
BD. Ah ha!
F. I was wondering what the reason for that was.
BD. Excuse me?
F. What was the reason for you doing the story?
BD. With?
F. Heidi Munchausen.
BD. Because she has this problem you know; yes who are you?
F. I'm Frederick Roth. I'm the chap that you are writing about.
BD. OK.
F. Yeah.
BD. So you are the chap that is sending round the faxes.
F. Oh, faxes, hundreds of letters, yeah … all over the country. I think another 200 arrived today.
BD. You think so?
F. Well I hope so unless the post office stop them.
BD. OK.
F. Yeah, because I've spoken to your journalist this morning and I've given her the name of my lawyer in Drammen…… he's had my papers for five months with instructions to sue your newspapers. I've got a lot of evidence over three years now and I told him to issue proceedings. So the sooner he does this the better so that the truth can come out. But what have you been saying today?
BD. I think I have to put you over to the Editor in Chief, that's Mr. Aaraas, just a moment please.
F. Well you, oh, OK [passing the buck again!].
A. Ya Aaraas.
F. Yes hello there, good morning, the name's Frederick Roth. I understand from my lawyer that you've done a story on me today.
A. I have, yes.
F. Heidi Munchausen. My lawyer's had my papers for five months now. I asked him five months ago to sue the three newspapers in Norway, but unfortunately he hasn't time, because there's so much to read and he's so busy. But I spoke to him this morning and he told me there's another story and he's going to read through it [Gjone hadn't himself had the time he told me to read through it but would put it in the post]. But the thing is, what have you said today?
A. What we have said today? Well er there's no name in it [i.e. they hadn't named me].
F. Why's that then?
A. But …
F. Why's there no name?
A. What?
F. Why have you not mentioned my name?
A. Well why should we but we thought that we communicate through your lawyer. That's the best.
F. Well, yes, you will communicate with my lawyer but I'm asking you a simple question. I haven't got the newspaper in front of me so I can't read it. I'm just asking you simply why did you not name me, because … …
A. I, I, I, do not answer any questions at the telephone. We communicate through your lawyers, OK.
F. You see, the thing is we had a very big story here in the English newspaper "The Sun" a few weeks ago about an Englishman sleeping with lots of women in Norway. The newspaper in Norway named him and the newspaper in England named him, so why don't you name me? Have you got something to be afraid about?
A. I don't answer any questions. Ask your lawyer to contact us.
F. I have. Can you ring him yourself please if I give you the number?
A. No, no, no. I've no reason to ring him. If he has anything to tell us I think he will write. That's the way we do it, OK.
F. OK. You are aware that another 200 letters arrived all over Norway today? And 1,000 in the last month.
A. OK.
F. I just wanted to tell you that because if you want to write things er like three years ago that I've threatened to kill her son, which is complete rubbish … and she told the police three months ago that I have raped her; she first of all tells them [in 1986] that it's attempted rape …
A. Well, I, I …
F. No, let me finish …
A. I have no reason to talk to you, so please …
F. Anyway, what's your - you're the Assistant Editor are you or the Chief Editor?
A. I am, I am …
F. Well, Assistant or Chief?
A. I'm the Deputy Chief Editor.
F. So Hans Odde is on holiday is he?
A. Yes.
F. Deputy Chief Editor, and what's your name please?
A. Aaraas.
F. How do you spell that?
A. A-A-R-A-A-S
F. A-A-R-A-A-S?
A. Yes.
F. Well I understand her husband gave the interview but you can tell Heidi that if there's anything in that newspaper, as I think there will be, that is lies and nonsense and it's the same old stuff, then you know the campaign will continue in ways that you won't believe, OK and the basic thing that will go out … is the one page Norwegian translation of her past. Ok?
A. Well ring your lawyer and he have to write to us then OK.
F. OK, right, bye.

Telephone call to Bergens Tidende. (13th July 1999)
F. Hello, Good morning, can I speak to Ingunn Røren please?
IR. Yeah, Ingunn.
F. Yes, hello Ingunn Røren, it's Frederick here in London.
IR. Yes.
F. Hi there, I just wanted to have a chat to you to ask you why you find it necessary to lie to the PFU about me saying that you and your partner are living in sin and that I won't be suing your newspaper [whereas I meant and continued] I will be suing your newspaper because women mustn't speak publicly and it's against the Koran. I mean, why do you have to lie. You know I didn't say that. In your heart you know I didn't say that, and I think it proves to you the lengths you want to go to, er, I don't know, to falsify things. You know I didn't say that. You've no proof. You've no nothing. I didn't say it. So why did you …
IR. I've told the PFU what you've told me … … and I told you also that I won't speak to you about this matter anymore.
F. Yes, but why do you lie?
IR. So you have to take this case to the PFU and they're taking their actions.
F. I want to speak to your partner because I never told him this. When did I tell him this?[i.e. that he was living in sin with Ingunn Røren]
IR. When you phoned my apartment.
F. I phoned your house once.
IR. Yes you did.
F. And are you telling me in that one phone call I told your partner … …
IR. Yes you did.
F. Well, you're lying because I didn't say that and your partner … um … I spoke to your partner for two or three seconds and I said to him "Can I speak to Ingunn Røren please… I presume that's your wife". That's all I said to him and he went to get you.
IR. As I told you, I won't discuss this matter with you. You have to speak to the Chief Editor.
F. It's nothing to do with him. It's personal between you and me.
IR. No, it's not personal.
F. It is. It is personal because it's your word and your editor doesn't know whether you tell him the truth or not. He can't prove it. But your partner, where is he? Is he still in Drammen? Is he with you here? Is he with you in Bergen?
IR. He's none of your business.
F. He's left you hasn't he?
IR. He's none of your business.
F. I think he's left you and not surprisingly. But the thing is … I have to find him. I will find him because I never said anything of the sort.
IR. Then you have to find him. It's none of your business.
F. Well, then, can you at least give me his name?
IR. No. He's none of your business.
F. He is, because you … …
IR. It's part of the PFU case … … I'll await what the PFU has to say about this. I've told you before, I'm not gonna talk to you anymore about it.
F. You're scared. You're scared. You've got something to hide.
IR. I'm not scared.
F. That's why you don't want to talk to me.
IR. You're the one that should be scared.
F. I'm not scared in the slightest. Why should I be scared? You know I'm not scared. I couldn't give a damn about any of you stupid idiots 'cos you're a liar. You make up stories and you know it. In your heart … …
IR. I don't care what you think about me. I really don't care. I couldn't care less actually.
F. I think you could or else you wouldn't lie. And you're all very upset because of the huge amount of publicity. All the phone calls to your office and the police and the newspapers about the truth about Heidi Munchausen. I know you're all terribly upset.
IR. Why should we be terribly upset?
F. Because of the lies …[her frustration causes her to say and print]
IR. Why should you hold the truth about anything. Who told you that you have the truth …
F. I know what I've done is all true. All I've said … …
IR. Why's Heidi Munchausen your matter at all?
F. Well she's a … …
IR. She doesn't matter to you at all.
F. Well she's a liar and so are you. You're enormous liars.
IR. She doesn't care about you. She doesn't want to speak to you.
F. She's a sick woman. Been in a psychiatric …
IR. Why should you care? She lives in another country.
F. Because she's a liar.
IR. Who do you care. She doesn't speak to anyone that you know. I don't think she's a liar.
F. The point is … well you're just as sick as her if that's what you think. But the thing is you have started telling lies. So you categorically tell me that I told your partner he's living in sin.
IR. Yes, you did
F. OK, well … …
IR. I told you and I'll tell you once more I'm not gonna speak to you about this matter anymore because you're just making out all these accusations without any proof
F. What accusations?
IR. I told you …
F. Which accusations?
IR. I've told you. I don't wanna speak to you.
F. See, 'cos you're a liar.
IR. Speak to the Chief Editor.
F. No, no, no. He's just as bad as you. He wants to close up and say nothing.
IR. Maybe you should think about it. Why doesn't anyone want to talk to you?
F. Because you're a bunch of arseholes all of you. You're liars.
IR. So why should you care?
F. Well you do care. I don't know. You're probably twisted. You hate Moslems for a start. And where on earth does it say in the Koran that women shouldn't speak publicly? That's all rubbish.
IR. I don't know.
F. You made that up.
IR. I don't know.
F. The Koran says women can, must and [they] do speak publicly. And should speak publicly.
IR. Yeah, but I told you if you have anything else to say you should call the Chief Editor because he's the one who's handling this.
F. No, no, it's personal.
IR. I don't want to talk to you, I told you.
F. This is personal and I don't think it's anything to do with your Chief Editor. You're just covering up and lying.
IR. You still have to talk to him 'cos I'm not gonna talk to you.
F. Well, I have to find your partner or your ex-partner. I think he's dumped you because you're on the other side [of the country]; he's probably working in Drammen and you're here, you know. But … …
IR. I'm not going to tell you anything.
F. If I do find him, I'm sure he'll say that I didn't say that.
IR. Then talk to him if you can find him 'cos I'm not gonna tell you anything about him.
F. The thing is Ingunn, I taped that whole conversation [of 25.3.96, which proved I did not tell off Ingunn Røren's partner for living in sin] at the time, OK. I've got it.
IR. Yeah you probably did.
F. OK.
IR. It's illegal but you have … …
F. Well it doesn't matter … But the thing is it proves … …
IR. It's illegal so you can't use it in Court in Norway … 'cos it's illegal to tape records.
F. Well it's direct evidence that proves you're a liar. 'Cos you've lied to me again just now. And this business about erotic paranoia - I spoke to the psychiatrist, Nils Rettersdøl, and he told me that whoever phoned him up from the newspapers told him nothing about Heidi Munchausen - nothing - and told him very little about me. You twisted it. You gave a hypothetical situation and that's another dreadful thing you've done yourself. The point is you're so full of shit, I'm surprised … …
IR. It wasn't me who call him [being Nils Rettersdøl] [Her article still said I was suffering from an "extreme case of erotic paranoia".]
F. I'm surprised you can live with yourself for being such an awful liar. Why don't you just give up and re-educate yourself in proper manners?
IR. Why don't you just give up? The Heidi Munchausen … …
F. Because, you're the one … …
IR. She doesn't want to talk to you.
F. Well, I'm not interested in the stupid idiot for Christ's sake.
IR. Leave her alone.
F. Well, you started lying. She started making completely false allegations. OK.
IR. I told you I'm not going to listen to you anymore. So you have to call the Chief Editor.
F. I will call the Chief Editor but I think you know exactly what kind of a real liar you are and …
IR. I'm not gonna listen to this.
F. Well, you don't have to … bye bye. Bye.