Telephone conversation with Torill Sorte the following week: - (2nd week in April 1996)
F. Yes, hi, good morning. Is that Torill?
TS. Oh yes!
F. Yeah, this is Frederick here.
F. I understand you've been looking into this matter with Heidi Schøne. Did you get my letter? [I'd sent her a full report of my side of the story plus copies of Heidi's letters to me]
TS. Yes I did.
F. Now has it been of any use to you, all my stuff?
TS. I have talked to Heidi's husband and he told me that they want to um put the case away and not do anything with it so I he wanted to go home and talk to Heidi and I haven't heard anything about it after that.
F. When was that? When did you speak to them?
TS. Oh, three weeks ago.
F. The thing is you see, I'm not very happy to leave it at that because she has done dreadful things by telling the newspapers [and I reiterated the basic facts] and I wanted to convince you that she was lying and I wanted you to actually talk to her in your police station and say "Look - these are such terrible lies how can you get this man into trouble?"
TS. I have tried to come into contact with Heidi but she don't want to come here and talk to me. I don't know why.
F. Yeah, you see that's exactly the point she's avoiding you because she knows she's an awful liar.
TS. I hope I come in contact with Heidi soon so we can close this case and what you want to do with it after that is up to you.
F. I want you to honestly try and establish without doubt in your minds that she is telling lies
TS. I want to come in contact with Heidi. I shall write to her again and tell her she'll have to meet me on my office and I shall confront her about what she has said and what you say and then we can talk again. I shall try to come and contact her next week if you call me in two weeks.
F. Do you have the power to charge her with perverting the course of justice? In telling you this about me threatening to kill everybody she wants me to be arrested and taken to court. That is definitely perverting the course of justice.
F. Something has to be done to her. To make her realise she can't do these things.
TS. I see, but my problem is that I never have spoken to Heidi.
F. Oh, you haven't?
TS. No, because she don't want to come here. Every time I ask her to come here, her husband have come to me.
F. Yes, exactly that illustrates my case perfectly because she knows she is an awful liar.
TS. But I don't want to give up before I have talked to her.
F. Exactly, so you take your time. But the only way you are going to talk to her is if you go and see her in her home, and you use your authority as a police officer.
TS. But I will try again and come in contact with her and if she don't come here, I will go home to her and try to talk to her there.
F. Ask [Runar Schøne] why he speaks to me in tongues and in Biblical language.
TS. I shall talk to him about that.
F. Finally, there is one more thing. Do you think the newspapers will print an apology to me?
TS. I don't think so then you have to talk to the newspapers.
F. Once you finish the case, would you talk to the newspapers and tell them what your conclusions are. They will want to know from you what your
TS. I have no right to go to the newspapers because I don't have authority to talk about the case with the newspapers.
F. But they came to you. They contacted you didn't they?
TS. That's the right way but I can't go to them. But you can.
F. Also when you do go down there [to Heidi's] speak to her neighbours. Ask them if I've threatened their lives and the rest of it. Anyway, thank you very much and I'll give you a call in maybe two weeks time.
TS. Do that.
F. Thank you.
F. OK. Bye bye.
TS. Bye bye.
During the second week in April (1996) I spoke again to Torill Sorte:-
Police Receptionist: Lensmannkrontroller [which means 'Police' in Norwegian].
F. Hi, good morning, is Torill Kjennås back yet please? [Her full name was Torill Sorte Kjennås but she preferred to be known just as Torill Sorte].
Police Yes, just a moment.
F. Thank you.
F. It's Freddy.
F. Yes, hi there. So any news?
TS. No! [she exclaimed] Because I tried to get her before Easter and I drove over to her and she wasn't at home. I tried to call her and I have sent her a note, so I hope to hear from her, but I haven't heard anything yet, no.
F. You couldn't speak to her on the phone then?
TS. I haven't get her (ha! ha!) I haven't ring her [she meant spoken to her].
TS. Nobody's taking the phone.
F. So you think she's in hospital or something? Is she having a baby or something?
TS. No, I don't think so.
F. Have they moved house?
TS. No, they live at the same place. But maybe she have been out on some holiday, I don't know. So I try again and I hope to hear from her.
F. Keep trying.
TS. Yes I am doing that.
F. I still cannot understand why she's not she's normally so keen to tell everyone how nasty I've been and
TS. Not any longer I think.
F. I think when she told these stories to the newspapers, she probably thought I would never read them I would never see them. It was only good luck because the lawyer I was using at the time sent me one article and then I went to the Norwegian Church and saw all the others and I nearly died of shock seeing them. All right, so what shall I do? Ring you in another week?
TS. Um, yes. Try to call me again. I am trying but I don't have any luck yet. But I write to her the last day before Easter, so I hope.
F. Yeah, so did I. I wrote to her too. I just wrote and told her that I had those articles translated and told her that how dare she write such rubbish. I also spoke to the newspapers and asked them why they print this stuff and they said "Because she told us".
TS. OK I'll try again, ring me in a week or something.
F. How do you spell your surname?
F. Your second name?
TS. Sorte: S-O-R-T-E-.
F. It's Torill Sorte?
F. Is that Norwegian?
TS. That's Norwegian. Ha! ha! ha!
F. Oh is it?
TS. It's 'Black' in English.
TS. It means 'Black' in English.
F. Does it?
TS. Yes, ha! ha! ha!
F. Well, OK. It's a pleasure to talk to you actually. You only work a few days a week do you?
TS. No, I work everyday, yes, but I have a baby for a year or so.
F. Oh, have you. Ah! Lovely.
TS. Now, I started working again.
F. Yeah, well good luck. I'll speak to you again in a week or so.
F. Thank you very much.
F. Bye bye.
TS. Bye bye.
April 17th 1996 conversation:-
Police: Nedre Eiker Lensmann Kontroll Good dag.
F. Good morning. Torill Sorte please. Is she in today?
Police Yes, one moment.
F. Yeah, hi there Torill, it's only Frederick here again Er, have you any news at all?
F. Guess not?
TS. [suppressing a slight laugh] Heidi stay here now and I talk to her now.
F. Right now?
F. Ah, good.
TS. And you can call me up later. That will be good.
F. What I'd like to do actually is talk to her myself after you've talked to her.
TS. She don't want to talk to you.
F. She doesn't? It's just there's er
TS. She don't want to talk to you. You can talk to me but not now because I have to talk to Heidi, yes?
F. OK. It's just that I I have to sort of ask her what she's er these allegations about er her son [threats she made alleging my] attempting [I meant threatening] to kill her son; the [allegation of attempted] rape especially and it was important that I ask her, you know.
TS. You see she don't like you anymore.
F. Well I know that, but I don't like her, but I still have to talk to her.
TS. No, she don't want to talk to you. You can call me later.
F. When's best?
TS. In an hour, half an hour.
F. OK then thank you very much. Bye bye.
TS. Bye bye.
Call to Torill Sorte on 22nd April 1996:-
F. Yeah, hi there Torill, it's Freddy here again. Sorry to trouble you I haven't been able to get much sleep since you spoke to me on Friday, mainly because I haven't got any answers to these accusations that Heidi's been making and I just want to ask you once again where is the evidence that I threatened to kill her 9 year old son?
TS. They are in letters with Bergen Police.
F. And what date are these letters? When were they sent?
TS. Oh, I don't know. That's the old case I
F. The old case? What, from 1986?
TS. Maybe, I don't know.
F. Her son was not 9 then was he? Her son was 1. And I'd have to be mad to threaten to kill a baby then wouldn't I? Huh?
TS. You ask me but I don't know anything about it because I haven't read them.
F. So I wrote to her parents in about 1986 or 1988. I can't remember anymore but her son in 1988 was 2. Now how on earth am I going to threaten to kill a two year old boy, huh? How?
TS. Don't ask me about that. I can't answer you about that if the letters say that you have threatened her son
F. Yeah, but I haven't threatened
TS. . In the letters and I will read it when I get them but I haven't read them yet; I don't know.
F. She's saying I've threatened her son?
TS. Er she's saying it's said in a letter, yes.
F. In a letter? My God! But he's not nine though is he? The newspapers said I'd threatened to kill her nine year old son.
TS. OK, I don't know anything about
F. Well, haven't you read the newspaper?
F. Oh, you haven't? [I couldn't believe this; the policewoman had not read yet any of the newspapers with their heinous lies. What kind of sloppy police work was this?]
F. I mean what was your evidence based on. I thought When I spoke to Mr. Jensen [the policeman I first spoke to] he said to me there is so much she is saying that he didn't believe her now why did he not believe her?
TS. I don't know why he don't believe her but what I am saying to you .. it's you who's calling her; it's you who's writing to her
F. And why am I writing to her? Because I
TS. Listen to me she want to be in peace and it's you who can't forget what's happening and that's why I'm saying that er .. er if you have leave her alone and she still have write to the newspapers or so then you have a good case, but now when it's you who's writing.
F. Yes, but Torill, why am I writing to her? What are my letters saying? My letters are saying "Why did you tell the police I attempted to rape you". This is a most important point to me. It's an important point to any man. A man has a right to know why false allegations of attempted rape are being made. My lawyers are you going to prosecute my lawyers for writing to her [in 1990], [I added sarcastically]. She's a lying pig that girl and you should know she's been in a psychiatric unit. Now she is driving me nuts, and
TS. My job is not to say what's wrong with her. My job is you see to remember what you have told me. To remember what she has told me. And then I have to see at the case and see what I have.
F. But you seem to be telling me how wrong I am to make proper legal enquiries.
TS. No, I don't say how wrong you are. I say that I will give you our advice to stop to write.
F. I will. But why am I writing? I want some answers. I cannot keep [quiet].
TS. You won't get these answers.
F. Well then, don't expect her to be left in peace. If we were in England, she can be arrested, taken to the police station and questioned. But you, in Norway, you're being soft with her.
TS. I have talked to her.
F. Yeah? But you treat her like a friend, as if "Ah, poor Heidi" you know
TS. That's because I have no reason to hate her. My job is to investigate the case and I'm doing that. I have no reason to hate you either and I don't do that.
F. Well OK. But don't everybody have a go at me for writing letters. I only write letters because she is perverting the course of justice and in England, whatever happens in Norway there is nothing you can ever do to me, there's never going to be a case, I know that. You're never gonna get me over there and if she comes to England then my lawyers can run rings around her, but I will not stop until I have exact details; the attempted rape
TS. That, that's your choice but I say if I had been you I would stop to write because you are not doing anything good with doing that. We get many letters here [My 'information campaign' was hotting up].
F. Well, how many letters do you get?
TS. I don't know.. She's not get anything from you. The Post the [Post] Office is stopping the letters and giving [them] direct to me.
F. So what about letters to her neighbours? How do they get to you?
TS. They send them to me.
F. Oh they do Also I want to know which of her neighbours I've threatened to kill, yeah?
TS. I don't know anything about you have threatened someone.
F. Yeah, yeah. It says in the newspapers I've threatened to kill her neighbours if I didn't get her phone number and address.
TS. I haven't read the newspapers so I don't know.
F. Do you want me to send them to you, the newspapers?
TS. Yes, you can do that.
F. Yeah, I'll do that. So it's threats to kill her 9 year old son and if he's not 9, [when the alleged threats were made] he was 2. When I went there, she never mentioned this to me once and when I went to see him in 1990 - you know he was putting his arms around me, giving me a kiss. I was sending him presents: there was nothing. I mean I I'd shoot myself if I ever made threats to kill him; it's nonsense and also I want to know how my mother how [Heidi alleged that] she 'knew' my mother wanted to put me in a mental hospital. I want to know how she 'knew' that.
TS. I don't know.
F. I want to know about the 400 obscene letters.
TS. You can ask you mother about that.
F. Yeah, I have asked my mother. I'll get my mother you just hang on a tick. Mum!
F. Come here a minute.
TS. I don't need to talk to her.
F. Come here; come here [to my Mum]. It's about [Heidi's allegations] you wanting to "put me in a mental hospital" as Heidi says it just say that you never spoke to Heidi.
TS. My name is Torill.
Mum. Frederick wants me to tell you he wishes particularly at this moment to tell you that I did not threaten to put him into a mental hospital and and .. which I didn't do because no mother is in a position to do that I don't know how this phrase came about with newspapers articles being written and journalists putting their own bit into it and their own imagination; things become distorted and it is indeed a most dreadful and unfortunate affair.
TS. Heidi have very much good to say about you and your husband [which was bollocks because Heidi knew my mother and father were divorced. Heidi had either lied to Torill or Torill had got a faulty memory]. Heidi have very much good to say about you. She said the newspaper contacted her, so that's why the newspaper have written about it. Heidi says she haven't said everything who's done in the newspapers.
Mum. Yes, that is what I thought.
TS. They make up their own story you see.
Mum. Yes, that's what I thought. They made up their own story and Heidi has [and later] The other thing he is particularly upset about is that at one stage it seems Heidi accused him of raping her - attempting to rape her. There is much media hype about this - girls accusing fellows of raping them and this I find very theatrical and he wishes that to be withdrawn.
TS. I see; I understand that Frederick not can forgive her. I understand that but it's so many years since they have seen each other and it's time to stop things because you can't go on. Heidi want to be alone and in peace and she's married But you know we, the police in Norway here, are doing what we can to try to stop this because I don't have a case to bring Frederick to court. Not in here in Norway. But I hope he understands himself that he can't go on for these because then I have to do something. I can't let him because Heidi is very worried she's afraid of him the letters and phone calls she said she can't talk to her neighbours because they think she's nuts because they get letters from Frederick and read them and ask Heidi what is this so she don't know what to do and I understand that frustration, yes. So I hope you can talk to Frederick and get him to understand that we want him to stop and if he do that maybe he don't, can't forgive her but if it's that, that's a start for him. OK! Can you tell Frederick that I have to go to the Court and if he want to call me more he can call me later.
Mum. All right, many thanks, bye bye.
TS. Bye bye.
[This was a policewoman talking from a position of real ignorance, not having read any of the three newspaper articles. She seemed to be quite unsuitable to head any investigation. This particular taped conversation later turned out to be of vital importance in evidential value as will be seen later. My mother could not herself remember a great deal of what the newspapers had said about me as there was so much written and I had to prompt her as to what to say to Torill Sorte. Sorte was very partisan, trying to put across how oppressed Heidi felt from my 'nasty' campaign which of course was a natural response to the lies of Heidi and the newspapers. Heidi used her usual tactics of exaggerating her distress, disguising the fact that it could have come as no surprise to her that I would initiate a determined response.]
This was followed by a conversation with Torill Sorte. The occasion for this was when I phoned Svein Updal at the Bergen Police Station, who had retrieved my file from 1990 pursuant to my request to look at the file to see whether it contained a letter or letters Heidi alleged I had sent to the parents of Gudmund Johannessen threatening to kill her son.
F. [the Bergen policeman] said he didn't have the time to go through them [i.e.
my letters to Heidi on his file] word for word. So I said get in touch with
you and send the file. So he said he rang you and left a call out and you were
going to ring him at 3 o'clock or something yesterday.
F. Yeah, he said he left a message for you to call him at 3 o'clock.
TS. No, I haven't talked
F. His name's I think Svein Updal
TS. Yes, but I have to . I have get some message from him. Yes! Here, I have. OK. I will try to call him.
F. I'm getting a bit you know it's carrying on for so long and I'd really like to know today - er I'd like you to know today that I've not been threatening to kill her son, and I was wondering if you could ask him to get this specific letter which is written to, you say, Mr. & Mrs. Johannessen, is that right?
TS. But I will talk to him and I will ask to get the case here so I can look at it; but I don't know if we can answer that question today. I
F. But tell me something. You say the newspapers don't believe the story that I've written about Heidi. Now do you have the powers to obtain her psychiatric report from her doctor, Dr. Broch?
TS. No, but I don't see any why should I do that because my case is that she has wanted an investigation because of some letters and some telephone calls you have given to her. That's my case. I don't have any authority to investigate her life you see because that's not the problem in my case.
F. Yeah, but the problem in my case is that she's a liar and if you get You see I can't understand why the newspapers say they don't believe me. Everything I've told them and everything I've said is true and it must be simple enough to
TS. Yes, but you see I have your letters and I have the newspapers you sent me and as I told you some days ago that I will maybe ask the English police authorities to take you in and ask you some questions and write it in a report and then I will put it in my case.
F. But what more do you want to know?
TS. Yes, but that's the way we are investigating our case. That's the way to do it. My lawyer, my chief has to look at the laws in the right way and contact England if that's necessary
F. Have you read the newspapers in full now?
TS. Yes, I have read them.
F. Yeah, well I hope you can understand why I'm pretty furious, yeah?
TS. Yes, but er somehow; I understand you are mad at everything yes. But I mean this is a thing that has happened some time ago. You have to live with things. And maybe we can't forget but we have to live with it and I think it's time to do that now.
F. That's right, but can you not at least establish the truth that I have not threatened to kill her neighbours; I mean can't you simply ask Heidi which neighbours I have threatened to kill and go and get statements from the neighbours? Is that not simple enough?
TS. That's simple enough, but you have one story you see and she have another one and I have talked to Heidi, her husband and I have talked to people who have get letters from you; that's some neighbours, yes?
TS. And it's people in Oslo; people in Drammen.
F. Mmm, everywhere.
TS. Yes and they don't like it and I understand that.
F. Well yes of course they don't like it but the point is I don't like the newspapers telling the whole country; the newspapers told the whole country. I'm only telling as I said this is the only thing I can do. I have no other means of getting my point across. Now if she says I've threatened to kill her 9 year old son then she can go to hell. And I've threatened to kill her neighbours? Absolute rubbish. And you can ask her all these hundreds of obscene phone calls. She didn't have a phone from the time she left Bergen in 1988 until I phoned her in 1995 at her
TS. Why do you start to call her again then?
F. Why do I? Because I found out in [March] of last year that she'd made an allegation to the police that I'd attempted to rape her and obviously I have to ask her how the hell she comes to that conclusion. And she didn't answer me. She said "What were you doing before? What were you doing before?" OK. And I had sex with her OK, and if she should allege anything it's that I raped her, but she didn't say I raped her; she said I "attempted to". She was lying back on her bed I was sitting at the other side of the room; she said "OK come on over, it's nothing, OK, it's nothing" she said to me. I didn't touch her. I didn't force her; I didn't restrain her, nothing. I'd never do that and she knows that.
TS. But Heidi has never told me that you have raped her.
F. No - "attempted" to rape her.
TS. I know but er
F. Yeah, but it's in the police report. Helge Wesenberg, this big lawyer in Bergen, Helge Wesenberg.
TS. But, I haven't seen that report.
F. Well, OK. What you can do, - Wesenberg doesn't want to speak to me anymore because he's very upset at what I've done. Now the only thing that he should be upset at is that I've sent these reports to everybody. But I asked him [in a letter] did you believe the newspapers that I've written hundreds of obscene letters and made hundreds of obscene phone calls, made death threats, and he didn't answer that. He wasn't even going to speak to me. Now the day he said [i.e. wrote] "attempted rape" is the day I phoned Heidi again, yeah?
I made a subsequent telephone call to Torill Sorte in June 1996:-
F. Yes, hi there Torill, it's Frederick here; good morning. Have you managed to sort things out yet?
TS. Yes, I have given [Bergen police] a ring and they say that there is nothing in the case that we can bring something more in this case and I have said to my lawyer that I think if things are as they are now it wouldn't happen, - anything.
F. Yeah, the reason I obviously asked you to go to Bergen is I wanted to know [about] these threats to kill her son and her neighbours.
TS. I asked them about that and they say that it was nothing in that case who would bring something like that.
F. Yeah, so there's no threats against her son are there?
TS. No, they say so .. that er, there's nothing there.
F. Yeah, nothing at all.
F. So, I mean, that's obviously, you know, the news I wanted to hear so I'd like you to ask Heidi
TS. You see I have talked to Heidi.
TS. No, not again, but she said that er these things say these threats and so on and er I have checked it and in Bergen they say it's nothing who indicates like that.
F. So in other words
TS. Then you see - if a case we work with. Always like that: one of the parties say one thing and another say other thing.
F. But the point is I asked you specifically when I made these threats. She must know . I have never made them and as I told you before in 1990 that little boy, he really liked me and you know I'll always like him 'cos he's just a poor unfortunate and wonderful little chap and it just destroyed me to think she can say these things. You must ask her when I made these threats. Are you telling me she's a liar?
TS. Yes, maybe. You see if she lies about these things, it's not - what shall I call it - er she can do that if she want to do that. I can't do something with it.
F. There's nothing you can do to
F. You can't even tell her off?
TS. People lie to me all the time.
F. But why would she lie to you? Even the threats to kill her neighbours, you must
TS. I don't know.
F. You must simply ask her "which neighbours?". Say to her "Please Heidi get me one neighbour who can come to the police station and tell me that "
TS. Yes, but you see, er, when I, er, investigate a case and I see that I think I don't like the way she had told me, OK, that's a lie, then I say "Maybe" I take the case and go to my lawyer and say there is nothing and we put it away and if she is not happy with that we can take the case up again, but I don't think she will do that. I have no time and I have no thinking of contacting Heidi again. If she's not happy with the things I'm doing, she have to come to me and say "I want to take the case up again".
F. Oh, I've got you. She will just be told that nothing is happening?
TS. Yes, but the police mean it is not a case for the police. Maybe she is not happy with that. Maybe she want to do something more.
F. Such as what?
TS. Maybe she want to give a new, er, start a new case; but then she have to have new moments to come with and I don't think she have
F. New what?
TS. Yeah, and I don't think she have new evidence.
F. Well now, that's right. Will you actually tell her that there is no evidence of threats to kill her son?
TS. No, she will get a letter from us to tell what we mean about this case.
F. Will you actually tell her in that letter that "We have found no evidence that he has threatened to kill your son or your neighbours"?
TS. Er, no not specifically that, but it will tell that we have no evidence to say that this is a case for the police.
F. Did the Bergen police talk to you about this allegation of attempted rape?
TS. No, I talked to the investigator there and he told me that he has looked in the case and he couldn't find anything.
F. Ah, was that Krogvold?
TS. Er, yes.
F. Mr. Krogvold?
F. Well he told me that nothing was going to happen, but my lawyer wrote to me - Helge Wesenberg in Bergen - saying she made an allegation of attempted rape and I know it was many years ago but that doesn't really matter. It's the fact that she did it which ... that she made that allegation.
TS. But I hope now when I take this case to my lawyer and say "Put it away", I hope these things can stop and everyone can start, er, up. I understand this case have been a big problem for you.
F. It certainly has.
TS. I hope you can live with it in some way.
F. I just wanted you yourself to be satisfied that I never made threats to kill her son.
TS. Yes, but as I have told you earlier, my job is to investigate and I have to see the both sides of the case.
F. Yeah, but do you believe me that I didn't do this?
TS. I used to say that it's not my job to believe.
F. Oh dear.[We were going round in circles]
TS. I haven't found any evidence to say that you are a liar.
F. Surely you can ask her "Where's the evidence?" Just say to her "Where's the evidence Heidi?" She said it was in letters didn't she? She told you it was in letters but there aren't any
TS. I can't find these letters you know but she can lie to me if she's doing that. She can tell me things who is not true and she can do that.
F. Yeah, that's right. She's been doing it for many years and also it's very hurtful for her to keep taunting me about sex - she keeps going on about how I want to have sex with her and how I want her to come to England and have sex with me. That hurts me very very much. But er
TS. My advice to you is that you have to forget it and er not have any contact with her. I mean if she's a liar and she thinks what she has come to the police with is just a lie, she isn't a person I want to have any contact with.
F. Look can you sort of ring them up [the newspapers] and say "We haven't got any evidence for this"?
TS. Er, they have called me
F. When did they call you?
TS. A week ago.
F. Oh did they?
TS. Yes and I have tried to contact her but she have there has been some holiday here.
F. Which newspaper was this?
TS. Er, Drammens Tidende.
F. Oh good, yeah, Ingunn Røren..
TS. Yes, but I haven't got her yet and I don't know why she have called but I will tell her what I think and this is not a case for the police.
F. All right. Well, OK Torill.
F. Thank you very much indeed and, er, thank you for your time and everything.
TS. That's my job.
F. Also Svein Jensen, he was very nice as well and give him my regards.
TS. I shall do that.
F. Thank you very much.
F. Bye bye.
TS. Bye bye.
In late June 1996, I spoke to Torill Sorte twice and Hans Odde, the Editor
of Drammens Tidende.
Conversation with Torill Sorte:-
F. Do you think they [the newspapers] are going to put [print] something bad
about me again? I think they are aren't they?
TS. I don't think they have any reason to do that because there's no evidence to say that they have do that.
F. Yeah, but I said to Ingunn Røren "Why don't you believe my story. I swear to you it's all true". I admit I've sent hundreds of people those articles - my 'newspaper' - but it was all true. I haven't lied about a single word in any of those reports.
TS. You see [what you've said] in these letters are very bad things.
F. Yes, I know they are but they're all true.
TS. Maybe people think 'Oh! Nobody can do anything like this' and they think that the person who has written this must be crazy.
F. Yeah, I can see that in a way but it is all true, but also people can find out whether it's true or not you've seen that letter that she wrote to me in 1984; she's mentioned her abortions hasn't she ... she's mentioned the fact [in the letter] that there are things she can't tell anybody
TS. But people think these things are her problem and they don't want to know anything about it
F. But [Heidi] went to the newspapers herself and told such rubbish that I was glad that earlier I had sent that stuff because it's a dreadful thing to say that I've threatened to kill her son - I love that boy as if he's my son. You must have sympathy for me because she's always lied all her life about so many things. Her life is a mess and it's her doing; it's her boyfriends who've never loved her properly. They've never really loved her, so
TS. No, maybe that's true, but people think that this is the problem for Heidi and if she has ruined her life so what. They don't want to know about it, you see.
F. But they still read the newspapers about me.
TS. That news - you see journalists write things about people that's not true. If I have a story I've worked with and it come in the newspaper sometime I don't understand that this the case I am working with. They write things that are not true. And I try to live with it, but I understand it can be difficult sometimes, yes, I understand that. But if the newspaper call me I will say what I have found out.
F. Mmm, please, yeah.
TS. And I won't tell anything about my what I mean and what I feel about this because my job is to tell what I have investigate and what it come to that.
F. Do you think Svein Jensen could just tell them he didn't believe her?
TS. I don't think he will do that that is his personal opinion of this and er we can't do that because we have no evidence who says one thing or another. The only thing I can say is that the evidence is not strong enough to er have a case.
F. I would love to have confronted her and just sit down with you and her, just so that I can prove to you properly that she's lying - I mean I can't even talk to her on the phone. You won't give me her number will you? [I asked tongue in cheek].
TS. I can't do that. I am not allowed to do that.
F. No, I thought so [I laughed] Because she always gets away with it. She's never there to be questioned by anybody.
TS. I have questioned her.
F. Yeah, but I know her better than you. I know the facts better than you.
TS. You see, you say one thing, and she says another thing.
F. Does she still maintain that I've sexually harassed her?
F. Does she still say that I sexually harassed her every time I visit her?
TS. No she didn't mention that to me [But the newspapers printed it].
F. Do you want me to send you that letter that my lawyer in Norway wrote to me about attempted rape? Do you want me to send you that letter?
TS. You can send it to me.
F. Believe me, he did find this out from the Bergen police that she had complained in 1986 that I had attempted to rape her. He wrote that to me I can send you the letter if you want, because no-one seems to have picked this point up which is the reason I have sent all those letters in the first place, you see. I can't understand why the Bergen police don't mention this to you when my lawyer Wesenberg found this out last year. It was on the police file last year. So how can the Bergen police not mention this to you?
TS. You tell me, I don't know.
F. Mmm I mean, I'm sure something funny's going on up there. I don't know whether her parents are putting pressure on the police or they know someone
TS. You see the police in [Bergen] said to me, they could take the case [the police file from my 1990 arrest] and put it in the mail and I can read it, but it wouldn't give me anything you see, because it was nothing that says anything more than what I am having here, so
F. But it's funny. I just can't understand if she makes a complaint to the police about attempted rape which from her point of view, although it's a lie, she's maintaining it, I can't understand why she doesn't mention it to you. It's a dreadful thing for a man to do to a woman and if it's true, why doesn't she mention it to you? I think the reason is because she has also made the same allegation to the police about a Bergen shopkeeper and two allegations of attempted rape don't look very good. It looks as if um you know people are beginning to discover that she is a liar. She is the sort of person I have always said she is and
TS. That's why I say to you, you have to forget her.
F. Oh yes, I don't want to be romantically involved with her or anything, I just want people to understand that her kind of behaviour can ruin men, it can ruin me and it's too much to take. I can't live with it.
TS. I see.
F. Yeah. Anyway, well, I better say goodbye and er good luck with the newspapers.
TS. I shall try, yes. We'll see what's coming out of that. Yes? OK.
F. Thanks a lot.
Conversation with Chief Editor of Drammens Tidende, Hans Odde:-
F. Yeah, hi, good morning. Did you get the letter I wrote to you last week? [saying the police had closed the case and asking if they could print my side of the story].
HO. I got your letter this morning, yes.
F. Ah good. So what are you going to do?
HO. I am going to do exactly what I told you I was going to do last time we talked together; wait for the police decision.
F. But they've given it.
HO. No, you're not quite right there. They have not closed the case yet. Have you got a letter from the police?
F. No, I have nothing from the police and I will probably never have anything.
F. But the thing is as I have told you, I phoned the police up and they said they cannot understand why you are behaving like this because the case is closed and when she [Torill Sorte] has the time to do it she will officially close it. But the point is you didn't even phone her [Torill Sorte] up once in the whole year. You didn't really care about the investigation. It was me who did care about the investigation. Me who is supposed to be the er the Chief Tormentor and Nasty Person and it's only when I got to call the police to complete the investigation that they did it. You didn't care, did you?
HO. We care about the investigation in the way that we asked the police.
F. Yeah, but you never phoned them until I phoned you.
HO. OK. I don't know how often and when we phoned the police.
F. Never, never - once last year and then never again.
HO. But the fact is this case is not closed yet.
F. Well it is closed. Ring her [Torill Sorte] up and ask her. Just say simply
HO. We rang her up after we talked together last time. Some few days ago and we asked her "Is this case closed?" and she answered "No, not yet". And we're still waiting for it so when this case is closed we'll write about it. I promised you that and we will.
F. But are you going to say something like 'This man in England has got away with it and Oh dear! What can we do about this nasty man who's still writing to everybody about this poor girl Heidi'. I mean you're going to do a story in her favour. You're not going to help
HO. No, no er I think that we will make a story according to the facts in this case and write the decision the police does.
F. But are you going to write anything about what I've said about Heidi's past. Are you going to say the reason I've sent all those letters out is because I can't get this attempted rape business and the other allegation against a Bergen shopkeeper of attempted rape, and the AIDS business
HO. I can't tell you which of these details
F. Can you tell me even maybe one detail? Anything?
HO. No, I don't think so because we are still waiting for the police and when they decide what to do about the case we'll write about the decision and before that I cannot tell you what we are going to write because I do not know yet.
F. Are you even going to apologise to me?
HO. I do not know because I do not know if there is a reason for apologising.
F. Because I haven't threatened to kill her son. I haven't threatened to kill her neighbours. That's something I'm not going to accept and I will wait until I've seen what you've written and then I'll decide what I'll have to do, but this case is not over until I get some apologies. And front page. Believe me, because I'm not gonna have my life ruined - er
HO. Mmm Mmm. I can't tell you what we are going to write but as I have told you, we are going to write about this case when it is closed by the police and if there is a reason for apologising, we are going to do that. If there is a reason. If we have done written anything wrong, sure we are going to apologise that.
F. Good and you must explain to your readers next time round that the hypocrisy of Heidi when she says "As if I have AIDS?" You must point out I'm not sending books out of spite. She risked catching HIV and those are Christian booklets and you must explain the reality behind my actions.
HO. Yeah, I can't tell you now so if you just wait for the official answer from the police when the case is closed and we're going to write the facts about this, I'll tell you that.
F. OK. All right then.
F. Thank you very much.
HO. Bye Bye.
F. Bye Bye.
Next a telephone call (June 1996) to policewoman Torill Sorte:-
F. Hi, good morning, is Torill Sorte in today please?
Answer Just a moment please.
F. Hi Torill, Freddy here again. Did you get that letter I wrote to you last week?
F. Yeah, so are you going to be able to write to me now and just tell me that this case is closed so that the newspapers can
T. You won't get a letter from me.
TS. You will get it from the police in Drammen.
F. Oh, in Drammen.
TS. When the case is closed, you will get a message from them.
F. When will it be closed?
T. I don't know. I can't give you some
F. I mean, have you got a phone number for them. I can get in touch with them and ask them what's going on
TS. The case is with me because I have to go through the case and look at all the letters you have write and the letters Heidi have write
F. So the newspapers; you know, I keep telling them you tell me the case is closed. They tell me it's not closed.
TS. You see I have said to you that the case is closed, but I think that's what will happen when I send it down to Drammen.
F. Oh, I've got you. But the thing is, you know, when's it going to happen because it seems it's taking too long?
TS. It will take some time. I can't give you a date.
F. I mean is it going to be months do you think?
TS. No, I don't think so maybe some weeks.
F. Oh, OK. So, am I going to be arrested then if I set foot
F. set foot in Norway. Not at all?
TS. If you come to Norway?
TS. Yes, I will arrest you then, yes.
F. Even if I go to the airport?
F. But why's that?
TS. Because as I have told you the proof in the case are not good enough to do something in England, as I have told you before.
F. So in Norway there's proof is there?
TS. No, but we don't want you in Norway because we want that Heidi shall get some peace from you.
F. But what about some justice? She's a liar. I haven't done these things.
TS. You say that. She don't say that.
F. She says I've threatened to kill her son still?
F. Oh, does she?
TS. Yes she say that but I have no proof of that.
F. How does she say I've done it?
TS. She said you have written some letters.
F. Where are they?
TS. I don't know. You see I don't have proof of that.
F. Well that's right 'cos she's a sick woman and a liar. When did I write the letters and what did I I mean any normal person keeps these letters don't they? If you threaten to kill someone you keep the letters don't you?
TS. She says she has given them to the police in Bergen.
F. Yeah, and what have they done with them?
TS. And they don't have the letters.
F. Yeah, that's right because she's a bloody liar and I wish you'd believe me for once that I've written no such thing and I want to know from her when. It seems to me that I'm going to have this little bitch properly questioned and er
TS. I don't need to hear this you see.
F. You say you're going to have me arrested if I set foot in Norway. Now I'm the victim. I've only got in touch with her because I want some answers, and just because I want answers because you haven't questioned her properly, then I shouldn't be made to pay for it by being arrested in Norway.
TS. You see you have sent 400 letters to people in Norway.
F. But not 'obscene'. When the newspapers say "400 obscene letters", what I understand by that is that I've written 400 obscene letters to Heidi.
TS. No, not to Heidi.
F. So when it says "400 obscene letters" [in the newspapers] those are the reports
TS. To hundreds of people everywhere in Norway.
F. Yeah, that's right, but they're not obscene.
TS. And the police in Norway don't like that you're doing this, but there are no proof to have a case, so
F. So when the newspapers say "400 obscene letters" they don't mean letters I've written to Heidi? They mean letters to other people?
TS. Yes, you haven't write 400 letters to Heidi.
F. Oh, no, no that's what I thought the newspapers meant. What about obscene telephone calls then? I haven't made obscene telephone calls.
TS. No, you say that but as I have told you before, the case have two sides; yours and Heidi's
F. Yeah, but if she has no telephone from 1988 to 1994 how can I make obscene telephone calls? How? If she has no telephone tell me how I'm supposed to do this.
TS. She have a telephone.
F. She has a telephone now, but not between 1988 and 1994. OK. That's easy enough to check with the telephone companies.
TS. But you see I have no proof in the case to have a case, and that's why I have to go through the letters because my lawyer in Drammen want me to do that. When I have done that we will send the case to Drammen and I think, that my [opinion] that the case will be closed.
F. But I'll still be arrested because the police don't like me sending out the truth to
TS. No, because Heidi says that you have um, have said you will come and visit her
TS. Talk to her
F. Yes, that's right because you can't do that [i.e. they aren't competent enough to cross-examine her properly].
TS. But listen to me; and she don't like that.
F. Oh, doesn't she? I don't like being accused of attempted rape. I don't like being accused of threatening to kill her son.
TS. No, but if you are going to Norway and you try to come in contact with Heidi, then I must believe that, er, it's a reason why you're doing that. If the things Heidi says is right, then er er when you are coming to Norway you are in a way telling me that she is tell the truth, you see.
F. Yeah, but the point is no one's given me the opportunity to talk to her about these allegations and that's not fair. That's just not fair. If I'm brave enough to come to Norway, it's not to kill her son is it? Or kill her neighbours. Have you found me one neighbour?
TS. No, but I don't take that chance you see. She said you maybe want to do that. You say to me that you don't want to do that.
F. She's saying that I maybe want to kill her son? Is she saying that?
TS. She's saying that, yes.
F. Ok. I'll never forgive her for this. I tell you something, I'll never forgive her for this. If that's what she's saying; have you spoken to her son?
TS. No, he's a little boy.
F. Oh, no he's 10 - he's still
TS. Still a little boy, yes.
F. OK, still a little boy but you can at least still speak to him. He's not in a court of law.
TS. She has said that you have sent some letter with these - we have discussed this before.
F. Yeah, but where are the letters for Christ's sake? - You -you
TS. As I have told you before, I can't find the letters.
F. Well ask her, go back and ask her
TS. Yes I have ask her. She has said that the letters is at the police in Bergen but the police in Bergen don't have the letters.
F. Why not?
TS. That's why I'm closing the case you see.
F. Yeah, so if the police in Bergen don't have the letters, you must tell Heidi they don't have the letters.
TS. Yes, she know that.
F. Yeah, because she's a liar. They don't exist. They never did.
TS. But you are not a criminal because you are lying you see.
F. Yeah, but I'm not lying, I never wrote such rubbish.
TS. Yes, but Heidi says the same about her you see. You are saying one things, she is saying another and my job is to prove who is the right and I can't prove that what she's saying is right, that's why I'm closing the case.
F. Yeah, and did you ask her about the attempted rapes of me and the Bergen shopkeeper? Have you got in touch with the police about the Bergen shopkeeper? My lawyer told me that on the file in the Bergen police station she made an allegation in December 1986 that I've attempted to rape her. Do you want me to send you a copy of my lawyer's letter?
TS. Yes, but as you know the case in Bergen is closed.
F. Yeah that bloody bitch. I'll never forgive her for this. If that's what she's saying, then I'll do what I want. I can send hundreds more of those things [i.e. reports in Norwegian]. There's no way she's gonna get away with still maintaining, even [though there's] no evidence; she still bloody well lies.
TS. Yes, but as I have told you before, if still are sending letters, I can't close the case.
F. Oh, you can't?
F. Oh, a tricky situation.
TS. If you are stopping these and she is stopping these and I have no proof, yes, I will close the case.
F. Well I tell you something. I am so happy that I sent those letters because she must be miserable. They must be in every single hotel, shop, hairdressers, clothes shops - everything under the sun, they all know about her and I hope the rest of her life is hell I had the goodness to be kind to her and help her out and this is what I get. I get just treachery all the way. I mean you must see from her past history, all the things she's done that she's a bloody liar.
TS. Yes, but I have told you I will close the case. I think that will happen. I can't promise you if you coming to Norway that you get contact with her
F. What are you going to do then? Why don't you just let me speak to her in front of you? Why don't I just come to Norway?
TS. She don't want to speak to you; she don't want to see you.
F. What do you mean "don't want". This isn't a social call; it's something you should investigate with me you and her.
TS. Yes but I have done.
F. Not with me sitting beside you.
TS. Yes, but I am closing the case because I don't have any proof that you have done something criminal and that's why I'm close the case and you should be happy for that.
F. Yeah, well I hope the newspapers can er I tell you something, if those newspapers print any more rubbish on me, then I tell you something it's not the end of the story and I'll ruin that girl's life. I know her life must be miserable at the moment and it's probably ruined anyway, but I'll make damned sure it's ruined properly.
TS. You will ruin her life but you will ruin yours.
F. I won't ruin my life. I live in England. It's a miserable life anyway.
TS. But you won't get it any better. The best thing for yourself is forget Heidi and I have told that many times. She's said one thing and if she wants she can do that and you say another thing. But I have no proof.
F. No, no, but at least Svein Jensen told me he didn't think he believed her. He did, but you can't can you?
TS. As I have told you before, my job is not to believe you.
F. Well, why does he believe me then and not you? He's a policeman.
TS. As I told you, maybe I believe you, but my job is to investigate.
F. Well OK. If she says that there are letters with the Bergen police, I want to know where they are.
TS. They have no letters in Bergen who says that you
F. Well, why does Heidi say they have them then?
TS. Maybe she's a liar.
F. Yeah, good. Exactly. Even if I get another lawyer to look into this case, then as soon as he writes to you, you won't tell him anything more than you've told me will you? He won't be able to do anything will he really?
TS. What do you want him to do?
F. What I really want someone to do is cross-examine Heidi.
TS. I have talked to Heidi.
F. Yeah, but you haven't cross-examined her properly. You didn't even have the newspapers with those allegations [that were printed in them when you saw her for the first time on April 17th, I would have gone on to say].
TS. But I have the case. I asked everything. I asked her about the letters where you should have threatened her son to kill him.
F. When did I send them? Can you tell me when? When did she say I wrote them?
TS. Oh that was some years ago.
F. "Some years ago". Yeah, when he was two. Wonderful. What a bastard I must be to write [that].
TS. Yes, but she said that and I said OK, if he had write some letters and what is it her husband's father.
F. Have you spoken to that stupid arsehole? Her father? Have you spoken to him?
TS. What, her father?
F. Never spoken to him. When I told him that Heidi was a suicide risk and told him about her abortions and everything, he put that letter into the police OK and two years later she did try and commit suicide. So that man he never looked after her. He didn't give a damn for his daughter and what I predicted came true. He only did that [allowed my letter to go to the police] because he was upset and you know it just doesn't square up; I mean she goes to the police 20 months after I last stayed with her saying that I've attempted to rape her, OK, and the police did nothing then and they did nothing when she went to the police saying a Bergen shopkeeper had attempted to rape her. They did nothing then. It just does not add up. Can you tell me, does she go to work?
F. She just sits at home. Has this husband of hers, has he got any children of his own?
TS. No, I don't think so.
F. Nothing and she's not going to have any more children at 33.
TS. I don't know she and her husband want some babies, I don't know. [Heidi in fact was pregnant and later gave birth to a son].
F. Well, I'm sure they do want some, so we'll wait and see, but I hope she doesn't get a good night's sleep again because she knows she's a liar and when we all die and God judges us, you'll know for sure then that I don't threaten two year old babies. And how come that when I go and see him in 1990 he [Daniel her son] sits on my lap and kisses me and tells all the neighbours what a wonderful friend he's met and she [Heidi] lets me talk to him. What kind of woman lets her son do that if he's threatened [i.e. me] to kill the son years before?
TS. But we have talk [about this] many times and maybe I believe what you are saying. As I have told you, I've no proof to do the case that Heidi wants to. That's why I'm closing the case. You should be happy for that because, er
F. Well that's the least I expect. Well I think that's about as much as I'm going to get from you to say she's a liar, but you can rest assured all I've done is written [those reports] to about a thousand people but I want once and for all that evil woman to know that for the rest of her life people will know what she's all about and if the newspapers can print rubbish on me then I see no reason why I can't have my own source of truth sent out to the public in Norway you can call my letters a newspaper.
TS. Yeah, I see. I understand what you're saying. But, I mean, these have to stop sometime.
F. Yeah, it does but how can it stop when she makes these outrageous allegations?
TS. But I mean when the case will be closed, you see, the newspapers will write about that.
F. And what will they say about me though? They're not going to write anything nice about me. They'll just say - 'this madman has again escaped justice because the police have found nothing, but we still believe Heidi and etc etc'. I just cannot believe they are going [to write an apology].
TS. That you can't blame Heidi for. You see she can't say what the newspapers will write what they are doing that's their business you see.
F. You see it's a bit too much for them to say they were wrong; they just don't do that, the newspapers.
TS. Maybe they don't will do that but that is the business for the newspapers; you see. You can't blame Heidi for that.
F. Well I can certainly blame her for telling those outrageous lies.
TS. That's because they're not writing nice things about you after the case is closed.
F. It's because obviously they think she's a poor little girl and they
TS. Maybe they do, yes, but as I said, if the newspaper is doing that you can't er
F. do anything about it
TS. do something about it because it's a free country and every newspaper have to write [and there my tape ended].
In August 1996 I spoke to Torill Sorte:-
F. Yeah, hi Torill, it's Frederick here.
F. Hi there! I had a chat today to the Press Complaints Commission and they told me that first of all the press in Norway are waiting for you, you know, the police to
TS. I have talked to them today.
F. Yeah, ah today?
F. Ah, and secondly they tell me that the press aren't interested in printing my side of the story. So as far as I'm concerned, then, they're worthless. Horrible people. I just can't see the justice in them [the newspapers] waiting for you to get in touch with them so that they can print another load of rubbish.
TS. But, as I have told you before, the press do what they want. I can't tell them what they shall do and you can't tell them what they shall do. They do what they want, and they'll write what they want.
F. Can you not at least as I asked you before, at least write to them specifically on these points; that you haven't found any evidence of threats to kill Heidi's neighbours or threats to kill her son and emphasise that
TS. You see, I'm not in a position that I can't do that.
F. But you are the police; you must, you
TS. Yes, I am the police and I can answer questions that they ask me but I can't write to them and tell them which way a case take.
F. I thought the whole investigation was based upon the fact that I've had allegations made against me that I've threatened to kill her son and the neighbours. Surely that's a serious matter for the police to investigate and for them to deny it or prove it.
TS. As I have told you before, that point of the case was investigated in Bergen by now and that's not my problem. I have to take care of all the letters you are writing.
F. Yes, that's right, lots of them [I was referring to the 'reports' in Norwegian].
TS. Yes and look at them and that's my case. What the police in Bergen have done - they have to answer for that. I am only taking these letters I have it if you want a letter from the police in Bergen who said they have locked your case and don't find any evidence for going to court, you can get , maybe get that.
F. I've given up with them because they won't write to me anything. I've written to them before and asked them and Commander Krogvold says he's not going to enter into any correspondence. You see, I would have liked something in writing about the attempted rape business and I've told the other newspapers the reason all these letters are going to so may people because of that allegation of attempted rape. As far as I'm concerned, there was no 'attempt' to do this and unfortunately, - I know you are caught in the middle, but the press for me are evil and they have to be taught a lesson and if they can't print my side of the story then this case will never end.
TS. You see the press can print what they want. If they don't want to print about you, they can do that. I can't say to them, you have to write about Freddy.
F. I think that this is such a major issue to do with love and truth that I think they need a lesson; especially Heidi; she's also complete evil and I can't let her win. And if they don't print my side of the story as far as I'm concerned the press have won, because everybody in Norway seems to you know if it's printed then they will think "oh, it's probably true" - because they don't believe that the press prints such lies.
TS. We have talked about this before and my position - I mean that people in Norway have forget this case a long time ago.
F. Have forgotten it?
TS. Yes, I think so.
F. But the thing is, I haven't.
TS. No, not you, but people around [i.e. the general public in Norway] have done that [i.e. forgotten it] and when you are sending these letters saying things about Heidi, they think you are crazy. It isn't interesting for them. It isn't interesting for them what you are saying. They buy the case of Heidi and I mean that was interesting. [An astonishing remark by Torill Sorte. The newspaper stories were interesting for the public, but the actual truth was not.]
F. Why did they find it interesting? Because it's all sexy salacious criminal stuff that everyone's going to find interesting; obscene letters, obscene phone calls. Of course they'll find it interesting. But the trouble is it's all rubbish. I'm beginning to think that people in Norway are simple in the head. You know, any fool can understand my point of view. I mean I've told people here [about my plight] and they can't believe it. And I want to teach Heidi a lesson, a nice good one and I'm afraid there's gonna be a lot more stress for her and I really want to 'break her back'. If you can't question her about the [allegation of] attempted rape whilst she's in the police station with you, right, and you say she doesn't mention this, then I've asked you to mention this to her.
TS. Yes, but that's not my case. I'm not interested in that. Heidi is not getting [your] letters. She is not hearing about the case at all. She don't hear from you because all the letters you send to her they come to me.
F. Yeah, that's right. But you see the letters that come to you come from England. If I got someone to send letters from Norway or Sweden, they would get to Heidi and she would hear about the case.
F. Why not?
TS. Because she has asked to have stopped all the letters she don't know who have write them.
F. Oh has she?
F. So she trying to um
TS. She don't want to hear about this
F. At all?
F. Yeah, that's right. Well she's obviously had enough.
TS. Yes she had enough.
F. Yeah, but the thing is you know if she still tells you in the police station that I've threatened to kill her son then she obviously is still lying and if she's had enough it's too bad. I can't
TS. But that's the case for Bergen police station who have investigated this and they said we have not go to the court with this case [i.e. there will be no prosecution of me].
F. Can you at least tell the press this?
TS. No, I can't.
F. Oh, well that's ludicrous isn't it? That is really ridiculous, because that's the whole point; to prove that she's a liar. She is a liar.
TS. I can't tell the press about any case I am [handling] you see.
F. So why do people write to me [a private detective from Oslo did] and tell me the police believe her?
TS. You have to ask them about that.
F. I have and they say they can't reveal their sources but the police have told them.
TS. The only thing I have told the [press] is that we have not you live in England, she live in Norway and we have no such much evidence that we can go to the English police department and say we want to talk to Frederick about this because here in Norway it's not a big crime. It isn't.
F. What isn't?
TS. The case you have.
F. Yeah, that's what I thought.
TS. Writing letters to people around in Norway is not a big crime here in Norway.
TS. That's why I'm closing the case but I have to put the case together before I send it to the lawyers in Drammen and then I think it will be closed.
F. Why do the Press Complaints people tell me this morning that if I was living in Norway there will be a case, that I would, er
TS. I think it will be yes. It will be a case that you are all the time sending letters around everywhere.
F. But you just said to me now it wasn't a serious
F. I mean why is it a crime for a start? It's a civil matter. It's me telling the truth just as [and I was going to add just as the newspapers tell crap].
TS. But you see Heidi have come to us because she want [us to] investigate you.
F. Yeah, why?
TS. Because she mean you have done something to her that you are not allowed to do
F. Yeah, what?
TS. Er, er
F. Yes tell me, you've never told me before.
TS. That's writing letters about her who you are sending around here in Norway.
TS. She don't like it I would not have like it.
F. Yeah, but I don't like finding out she's lied to the police that I've attempted to rape her when I haven't.
TS. But that's another case.
F. No. It's the same case; that's why I wrote the letters.
TS. No it isn't.
F. It is. I wrote those letters because I found that out [the allegation of attempted rape]. So it is the same case. Why do you think I sent those letters [reports]? Because I send them the day after my lawyer in Norway wrote to me saying that he's found out that she's gone to the police saying that I've attempted to rape her and if you ask her about the Bergen shopkeeper that she also went to the police and said had attempted to rape her then you can build up a nice big picture that she is a born natural liar. A repetitive habitual liar who needs help.
TS. These things about the letters is the only thing I'm investigating, and as I have told you that's not a big enough case to go to England and ask for help. That's why the case will be closed.
F. Good, will I get a letter from you?
TS. You will get a letter from me when the case is closed. We have had a murder here.
F. You did?
F. Oh God, who, who?
TS. Some people in a motor cycle group.
F. Hells Angels?
TS. Hells Angels and Bandidos.
F. And who?
F. What are they?
TS. A group who is not so big as Hells Angels.
F. So it's a gang fight?
TS. Yeah so I'm working with that and that's why your case is taking so long.
F. Oh, OK, fair enough. I understand. What did the Press Complaints Commission phone you up for this morning?
TS. When they called?
TS. Er about 10.30 I think.
F. Yeah, why do they call you? Just to, er
TS. They have asked me if I have sent the case to Drammen and what I will do with it and I told them what I have told you.
F. Right. 'Cos they seemed quite angry with me. He [Kjell Børringbo] seemed very resentful.
TS. That is [because] you are calling them and they look at it as a problem, I think.
F. A problem?
TS. That you are calling and ask for things and so on.
F. Well, that's their function isn't it? To investigate complaints against the newspapers. 'Cos no-one else helps me.
TS. But let's hear what they want to do with it.
F. Well I think everyone in Norway is against me. Everyone.
TS. I don't think it's personal.
F. Well, huh! [Not personal my arse, I thought!]
TS. I don't think so. But it's the way the press can write. You see
F. I can never forgive it
TS. I am in the newspaper sometimes and they write things about a case I have dealt with who is not correct at all.
F. This is ridiculous. That's disgusting. You are a policeman and they must print exactly the truth and what you say.
TS. They print what people want to read.
F. In that case they're scum and they ought to go to prison. You ought to go round and arrest them. This is just terrible stuff. We're living in a fantasy world.
TS. Press Freedom. They can do what they want to do.
F. It's a big abuse of freedom and I hope one day to confront these journalists myself and then they'll be taught a good lesson because this is just disgusting stuff - writing about sex-terror just to sell their newspapers. I feel sorry for you as well because I've gone on for a year now. I'm not phoning you up pretending to be a liar. I know what I've done. I know I've sworn at Heidi and I know what I've sent and I can admit all that, but um
TS. When shall you stop?
F. Well, probably, - not yet - 'cos I still wake up in the middle of the night with the words that I've threatened to kill her son [coming back to haunt me] and I can't live with it. I can't. And I don't see why I should.
TS. I don't understand why you can't live with it when
F. Because I haven't done it and she's told
TS. Yes, but when it's a lie then that's her problem and not yours.
F. Well it's my problem because I loved that little boy and he's probably read the newspapers and everybody thinks that I'm a pervert. And the press had the chance just to say just for them to print: "This was Heidi's words and we have no proof of it, it only came from Heidi". But they didn't. They have not printed my side or just an apology and they are sticking by their story. They told me they believe her . How many chances have they had to print my side of the story and just apologise? They've had a year and they've done nothing.
TS. They don't want to do it.
F. Well then they have to take the penalty don't they?
TS. As I told you before the press do what they want.
F. Oh, well. I think they're evil and
TS. That's their right I think people will talk about the press in the future also because the press have a right to write what they want and write it when they want it and the only thing they have to think about is to do something what shall I say if they write a story that the people tell them they can write it but they can't mix a story.
F. Can't what?
TS. They can't mix it themselves you see.
F. Er Make it
Yeah, they can't make it up themselves...... I mean even in England we have the Sun and the Mirror if they found out Heidi's past they would print it all; they would crucify her
F They don't want to look at it
That is right because I think it's a racist element as well - anti Moslem, anti-foreign. Everyone knows here in England that Norway's a racist nation. Very insular. It's not just me saying that; it's ordinary English people. But Ok. Well, I guess that's it. I'll just wait to
TS. I hope for doing something with the case when I come over this murder. But I have told the press what I have told you and nothing more.
F. Well thanks for that.
TS. And if they say anything else that's for them.
F. They keep insisting that you [the police] believe them fully, sorry, you believe Heidi fully and er that's upset me because I keep er I'm suspicious you see.
TS. As I told you before, my job is not to believe; my job is to investigate.
F. Ok Torill, well thanks a million. I'll wait to receive your letter.
F. Thank you very much.
F. Bye bye.
And again Torill Sorte in September 1996:-
F. Yeah, hi Torill, it's Frederick here.
F. Yeah, hi there. I was wondering the other day - I haven't heard from you with this letter that was going to come. What's been happening?
TS. I have talked to the chief lawyer in the Department.
F. The prosecutor?
TS. Yeah, you can call him that and he want to take a look at the case before I do anything else.
F. The case?
TS. The case Heidi has sent to us when she come here with it a long time ago a year I think.
F. What was her case?
TS. I have talked about that many times. You know what that is.
F. No, it's not just sending these bits of paper is it? [my reports].
F. It's not the stuff that's arriving in post is it, in Norwegian?
TS. No, it's her story about what she means is her problem. The letters and everything. Of course I could have sent you a letter, but I
F. you have nothing much to say.
TS. Yeah, so I'm sorry about that. I shall write it in my book and I shall do it I hope this week.
Finally, in October 1996, I spoke to Torill Sorte again:-
F. Yeah, hi Torill, it's Frederick here again.
F. I was wondering when on earth this case or letter from you is gonna close this matter altogether.
TS. I have looked at this case and I have talked to the Statenlawyer and we are doing something with it but it hasn't gone fast because, er
F. It's not important?
TS. Yes it's important for the people who
F. But it's not priority anyway?
TS. No, it isn't.
F. So what's the position then with this case?
TS. [Chuckling] I hope ha ha ha to send the case to my lawyer in the police in Drammen before Christmas, I hope.
F. Saying what? I mean what's he gonna do?
TS. The case is what Heidi have, er said in her, er
TS. Yes, statement. And my job is to prove or get evidence for one direction and the other direction.
F. So let's be honest, all you've got to really do is confront her again over these allegations that she says I've written threats in letters to kill her son, yeah? Now all you've got to do is get her back and say "Look, Mr. Roth is terribly upset over this lie and he has to clear his name", so what if you could please, is ask her to either prove that some evidence exists or admit she's lied. I know it's very hard [for her] to admit she's lied but at lest you can put it to her that "We have to assume Heidi that you have lied". And secondly you can ask her to produce these neighbours [and then my tape ran out before I could add "that I'm supposed to have threatened to kill"].
At 9.30 a.m. on 14th January 1998 I telephoned Torill Sorte;-
F. Yes, hi Torill, it's Frederick.
TS. Oh hello.
F. Yes, hi there, been a long time. Right, did you manage to read my letter that I wrote.
TS. Yes I did I give it to
F. Ah. Good. OK. I've got a copy of the letter in front of me, can we
TS. I sent it to the lawyer in Drammen.
F. Oh, the lawyer. Ah Ok. Is there any chance I could have his phone number?
TS. Er, yes (32) 805500.
F. And what's his name?
F. How do you spell that?
TS. L and one you don't use [she was referring to the "å" letter which we don't have in the English language] Lyngås, Dag Lyngås.
F. Ok, as far as you're concerned, what can we do about you interviewing Heidi
TS. I have talked to Heidi two times since I talked to you last.
TS. And I have written it down and sent it to Lyngås in Drammen and he has sent the whole case to Oslo who have been in contact with England and England has answered our letter and er told us they looked at the case and we have so long put the case away and that it - it won't be a case and so
F. So it's all over is it?
TS. Yes it's all over, yes. If it comes any more thing in the case we have to look at maybe the lawyers in Oslo [will do] something with it but not now.
F. So what were you trying to find out from the people in London and if I could be stopped somehow?
TS. No, not just that but we want to see the law, how they are, er
F. What for extradition?
TS. Yes, although we need to know what English er [law] is, what [it] says about these things. What they want [the English] to do with the case and if they get it over to them, so that was very more, what shall I say
F. Well you had to wait a long time for the police in England to er
TS. No, it was very quick way.
F. Oh, was it?
TS. But er the laws in Norway is not like the laws in England. See the difference, that's what we want to find out.
F. That's what I told you from the start. This isn't a criminal
TS. Yes it is.
F. In England?
TS. Yes, it is a criminal [offence] in England, but you see for the English police to look at the case it have they want some more if the case if Heidi have lived in England they would have done something with the case. But when Heidi lives here and you in England you have to be
[The English newspapers would never have contemplated such a story as did the Norwegian press so no conflict would have arisen here in England in the first place].
F. So what were the criminal things I was doing?
TS. Er, to say things about Heidi in the public and
F. Even though they're true?
TS. Yes, but you mean it's true: she says another it's, er, you call it in England you say things who is not so good about her.
F. What is she saying that isn't true?
TS. She say?
F. What things is she telling you that are not true? I mean it's all on that sheet of paper in Norwegian isn't it? Yeah?
TS. Yeah, but she say is not agree with you.
F. Yes, but on what?
TS. Yes it's many things you said in your letters. But she say also for some years ago she liked you very much and she told the things about her who were true and that you now use in your letters to people in Norway [that] hurts her. But she said also that it's a mix with things who is not true.
F. What are the things - I have not said a single lie in any of the things I've said
TS. She says so.
F. Yes, what?
TS. About doing and about
F. About doing? For instance, for instance Gudmund Johannessen. Is she denying Gudmund Johannessen took heroin?
TS. No, but it's the way you say it, er, what she what have that to do with her? Also she means that her life is her business.
F. You still haven't told me what I'm supposed to have lied about.
TS. Frederick, I don't remember exactly and I don't want to tell you things that I can't remember it correctly.
F. Well could you get your file then and I'll ring back, because
TS. I don't have it here any more. I have sent the case to Lyngås and Lyngås has sent it to Oslo, so I don't have it here any more.
F. So someone eventually will be able to tell me what Heidi says I have been
TS. Yes, but it's in the report I have written after talking to Heidi but you see it's a long time since I wrote this report and I don't have it here and it will be wrong if I tell you things and I don't remember it correctly.
F. Well first of all she must be saying that some of the things I have written in that report are not correct. But every single piece of information in there came from her mouth to me.
TS. she says that some things you are saying is wrong and other things you have written in the letters is mainly things that is right.
F. But what is she saying I've written when you say "wrong" do you mean that I'm making it up as lies?
TS. Yes, she says that something that you have written is lies, yes. But as I told you I can't remember what was that so I don't want to
F. Well OK, there's nothing that I've written, nothing whatsoever, once, that is a lie.
TS. You say that. She don't say that. So you don't agree about that.
F. That's what I'd like to find out. I'd like to talk to her because she
TS. She don't want to talk to you.
F. Well, that is not surprising because she's gonna have to the cross examination I'll give her will catch her out.
TS. No, I don't think that. She says she has tried to talk to you; she has written letters to you; she have tried to be nice to you, but now she says she don't, er
F. Well that's all rubbish, she the last letters she wrote to me were in 1990.
TS. Yes, that's a long time ago.
F. Yeah and that was purely to do with um, well I suppose re-establish a friendship and her, um, her Christianity and her wanting to marry a Christian man and hoping I would become a Christian, but it was nothing to do with trying to tell me to be reasonable and to leave her alone. But the thing is this, let's get down to some basics. Threats to kill her son. You read my letter so what's your answer to that. She alleges I've threatened to kill her son.
TS. She said for a long time ago, I don't remember when, it came a letter, who the police in Bergen have get but I don't know what they have done with it. I have tried to get it out but I haven't made it because they don't know where it is. They have thrown all the letters she gave to the police, maybe; I don't know what they have do with it. But they can't find it and they can't give it to me. Because I have I wanted to get the letters to read them.
F. So a major piece of evidence of threatening to kill a little two year old boy somehow goes missing?
TS. Yes, and er the police in Bergen say that they get some letters from Heidi and from her husband's the parents and that's right.
F. Her parents?
TS. No, not her what do you call it her husband's er
F. Her boyfriend's parents?
TS. Her boyfriend's
TS. No, not Johannessen. The father to the boy. The grandaddy and mother for the boy.
TS. Not Overaa. No, her boy. Er
F. Her step-brothers half brothers?
TS. No the parents of her boyfriend at that time who is the father for her boy.
F. You mean Schøne?
TS. He's her son?
F. Well Runar Schøne is her husband. In 1986 her husband
TS. Yes, the father of her boy.
F. Gudmund Johannessen.
TS. Was that Johannessen?
TS. OK OK. His parents did go to the police and give up some letters.
F. In 1986?
TS. No, um. Maybe, I don't remember.
F. Yeah I did write to them but I didn't say anything abusive in there. I just told them
TS. Ok, but at that time they took the letters and go to the police and write a report there. Heidi did the same, but I can't find it because they have maybe thrown the letters [away]. I don't find it. And they say they don't know where it is, so I don't know what they have done with it.
F. But I have a report from the police in 1990.
F. They say when my lawyer wrote to them in 1990 from here they didn't mention the fact of attempted rape, you see, but when my Bergen lawyer investigated it in 1995, he somehow found the allegation of attempted rape. So in 1990 the police didn't tell my English lawyer this and that's the reason I became so angry about this attempted rape and it's those it's the facts of that that I've been trying to obtain without success. You see that's the reason it was the last straw and I just won't accept that. No I'm obviously furious that this allegation about [threatening to kill] her son has been made by Heidi because you know, I have to be insane to put that in writing. I've never wrote it at all anyway, but for someone to put that in writing is suicide. And I think there's a cover up or something going on.
TS. But you can see er in the case who is in Oslo now we have based our investigation on things we can find, and I have got some letters in there from you, from Heidi to you.
F. But you can see the theme of my letters is the same throughout. I don't like being told after I've had sex with her that she's
TS. She deny that.
F. What, she denied that I had intercourse with her?
F. Oh, that's nonsense. I had an AIDS test in 1986 because she told me that Gudmund Johannessen was taking heroin.
TS. She says it happen maybe oh I don't remember, but I remember she said you have sex one time.
TS. In Bergen maybe.
F. That's right in 19 80 5.
TS. And she has said that she didn't want to have sex with you but you want.
F. .........But um, what does she say about the attempted rape?
TS. Er, she said that it was a rape from her side, yes.
TS. She said it was a rape.
F. Oh she's saying I raped her?
TS. I don't remember
F. On the occasion we had
TS. In Bergen.
F. But on the occasion we had sex?
TS. Yes, in Bergen. It was one time she says I mean to remember. One time in Bergen.
F. Is this the same occasion I've just described to you?
F. Oh she says that was rape?
TS. I mean so. I don't remember exactly but I need to remember that, er she said you have sex one or two times?
F. No, just the once.
TS. Once OK and that was the rape.
TS. She says.
F. So it's nothing to do with attempted rape, as the police said.
TS. Maybe at that time the police mean, it was that but, er
F. Well that's what they wrote. 'Attempted.' There's a big difference.
TS. Yes, I know, but I don't know that case. But I mean the police have not put the case away.
F. They haven't?
TS. We have yes.
F. Oh, you have, but what about the police in Bergen about attempted rape?
TS. Yes, that is put away.
F. So why does Wesenberg tell me they can re-open it?
TS. Maybe they can do that but it hasn't been done.
TS. Maybe they can re-open the case
F. Do they actually believe do they believe her does anyone believe Heidi?
TS. I believe that Heidi have a very difficult time and she have lived a life she don't not proud of, but she now try to start again and have a nice life All these letters from you and all the telephone to the neighbours and so on it's, er
F. Well obviously most women when they get to her age, she's 35, they don't have many chances left in life to
TS. Yeah, but I think she have a good life with her husband. I think so, yes she try to get on her life again and I think that she is making it; that she will make it. I think she will get a good life now but as she's said she has lived her life when she was young. She's not proud of it and she try to forget it but she can't when you write letters to her all the time.
F. Well obviously I'm not gonna forget the allegations she's made in the newspapers. But there was also, she alleged, a Bergen shopkeeper as you know had raped her as well. Have you any information on this?
F. No, well, as I've told you in my letters her old friend Ann-Kristin Horvei - I've given you her phone number - she told me a little bit as well about this Bergen shopkeeper who was supposed to have raped Heidi because they were at a party together so that's another little piece of evidence Anyway, I did not rape her and er, if she wants to maintain that then her life in the future's not gonna be very happy because she's gonna have to withdraw the allegation.
TS. But you see my point is that not we have put the case
F. In Oslo.
TS. Yes, and it's lying there and we won't do anything with it if it all stops now. I hope so. I understand that you is hurt and she is hurt.
F. She's only hurt because the truth has come out about her. I'm very hurt because a pack of lies has been told about me.
TS. Yes, you say that but as she said - things that is coming out er she mean it something is lies and something is truth and this is mixed together and it is much.
F. So the fact that she's been in a psychiatric unit and sleeps with people taking heroin and all the abortions it means that she's really not such a bad girl [I said sarcastically] .
TS. Yes, maybe that's right. But I see it like this. That is her life and as she says she is not proud of this life, but she want to come over it and start again.
F. But she mustn't oh yes start again. In 1995 she didn't start a good life again; she's turned Christian and for her to print wholesale lies or have wholesale lies printed in the newspapers means to me that she's worse than ever.
TS. Now the case is closed. For so long.
F. So will I be arrested if I set foot in Norway?
TS. Yes, if you try to contact Heidi you will.
F. If I try to contact her?
F. But if I don't?
TS. No, then I can't arrest you. I won't could do that.
F. Yeah, but can anyone else? Can the Bergen police? Can the people at the airport?
TS. Maybe the people in Oslo, the lawyers there mean that if you come to Norway we will try to start a case again. To end this case in a court or something. I don't know. For so long it's closed and I don't know what will happen if you come to Norway.
F. So I better phone them up and ask them.
F. So the best thing for me to do is to phone them up and ask them?
TS. Maybe, yes.
F. So is Heidi lying or what?
TS. I don't know. Maybe ha! ha!.
F. Well I think definitely.
TS. It's too possible the one is that if you have threatened them [i.e. the neighbours] they don't want to go to the police because they think they will not er make some more trouble for Heidi or maybe [Heidi] lied.
F. Yes, well I can tell you something. I've never threatened her neighbours at all. The only way I got her address was from an Indian woman called Camilat who worked at the post office who knew Heidi. 'Cos someone else in the post office knew Runar Schøne and that's how I got her so-called secret address. And again this woman Camillat told me that she thought Heidi was mixing with a man who took or sold drugs; a drug taker. So you know . Everything I've told you was gathered from other people.
TS. Yes, but what I understand is that these letters phones or everything have gone on so long. The police have put the case away. I don't know I don't understand why you can't stop it there.
F. Because it's a dreadful thing to allege that I've threatened to kill her son; that I've written 400 obscene letters.
TS. But I'm sure that no one in Norway remember the case anymore.
F. No, no, no. You see at the time the newspapers came out I couldn't do anything about it. I couldn't have my point of view printed and the effect obviously - the newspapers were printed against me and it has a much deeper affect on me than the public who don't care 'cos it's not them, it's me!
TS. The police have taken the case serious and we have looked at it and we have investigated and we have put it away and I mean you have to do the same. You can't do this for years and years.
F. To be honest I wanted to make sure that just as many people who read the newspapers read my
TS. Many people have read your letters yes, because I get many of them.
F. Yeah, that's why I've carried on because I had to get my point of view across and for that I blame the newspapers for Is it the case that the newspapers didn't believe what I'd written in Norwegian?
TS. The newspapers don't believe you, you say?
F. Yeah, is that why they
TS. Maybe, I think so, yes. but that's nothing to do with Heidi.
F. No, they printed what she told them. She told me over the phone she said you see when I spoke to her she refused to say anything about the case; she said the case is er "I can't say anything because my lawyers have told me to say nothing". But what she did say was "I could have told a lot of lies to the newspapers but I didn't" and er the reason she said that is because, she told me, "I know you're recording my conversation" and she said that on the recording of my conversation with her [so that] if anybody listened to it they would say "Oh look - she's telling the truth". But that girl told a hundred per cent lies. Now, I know her better than anyone because I've known her longer than anybody and that's why I don't care what anybody else says, you know I tried to say "Look! You know she's alleged that I've raped her now. Now get the evidence of the Bergen shopkeeper that she says has raped her". And it was me who was always trying to help her in the 80's even when I wasn't that interested in her 'cos obviously eventually with all these suicide attempts and sex with so many men, it kind of turns me off, even though I was feeling very lonely. So you know when she says she liked me a lot in the early 80's that was true but for someone in her condition she isn't gonna like me or love me for very long because she likes going with lots of different boys you see and when I find out, you know, that she's got pregnant again and it did almost ruin her life, because she did have another suicide attempt in 1988, my letters to her parents and to Johannessen's parents were obviously warnings which they didn't take seriously. They just ignored them and said this Englishman is mad, but what came afterwards was a tragedy for her and I foresaw it. No-one else did. I did. And when I go and first simply question her about getting pregnant again, she goes crazy.
TS. I don't want to do something more with this case now because I have sent it to Lyngås in Drammen and he has sent it to Oslo, so if you need to know anything more
F. Phone the others yeah. I think you've had enough haven't you?
TS. Well, but I can't help you any more because as I told you, I mean this case is so old and I mean when the police had looked at it and we have interviewed Heidi several times and I have talked to other people and
F. Oh, who else?
F. Who else?
TS. I have talked to her husband I have talked to the police in Bergen where I get the report from and I have talked to people who send me letters ... and I can't help you anymore. I mean if I have been you, I maybe have been hurt if the things you have told me is right but I mean that this case is so old and you have to close it and start on your life and forget maybe you can't forget it but you can live I mean you have to do that. I can't help you anymore; if you want some other answers. If you want the case re-opened again, you have to talk to the lawyers. I can't help with that.
F. Yeah, so it'll be difficult for me to get her prosecuted for perverting the course of justice would it?
TS. As it looks now, yes, but maybe the lawyers in Oslo say that okay now we have so much that we want to prosecute again.
F. Who has so much?
TS. I can't deny when the case is I send my stuff away to them and they have to decide when they want to get the case in Court.
F. So it's not definite that it's closed yet?
TS. No but at this time it is.
F. So the number of this man Dag Lyngås is 8-0-5-5-0-0- yeah ok. Well as far as Heidi's husband is concerned, I mean he can go to hell, because he says to me you know "Allah doesn't exist. Come to Jesus" and speaks like some lunatic 'in tongues'.
TS. He's very all right. I've talked to him many times and he's very all right.
F. If he says to me Allah doesn't exist and speaks to me 'in tongues' - for 5 minutes - and you're trying to tell me he's ok - he maybe ok to you but he's certainly got another side to him. But tell me something. If I don't see Heidi, right, I won't get arrested but I want to see that idiot her husband and I want to have a little chat with him. Now if I see him will I be arrested?
TS. As I told you and take contact with Heidi and her family
F. Or her husband?
TS. Her husband is included, I will, we will do something.
F. Yeah, what?
TS. We have to arrest you. We can't let you do that. She is terrified and her husband is a part of her life. That is one of the laws we have in Norway.
F. So simply trying to get the truth out of people once they've told [lies, I was about to add]
TS. You have to go the right way.
F. You have to go a different way? That's what I've been trying for the last er
TS. Yes and you have to try and talk to the lawyers in Oslo.
F. Three years.
TS. To re-open the case again.
F. All right Torill, thanks for the chat. I hope I won't have to bother you again and I appreciate all the time you've put in.
TS. I just hope you can start to have a new life. I don't think these things that is coming up now between you and Heidi is good. It's only hurting you both and I hope you can.
F. I was basically er the best years of my life have gone and the shock of what she's said and done about me - I couldn't really come to terms with and that is why I was determined over the years to punish her so, so much and continue doing it because I think there's one or two other people like her about; you know, you always read about them in the newspapers, in crime reports and I think she had to be taught a lesson that she'll never forget.
TS. I think she have. She has got a lesson from you.
F. Well I see in the newspapers she's lost a lot of hair. But, but when I last spoke to her I could tell the old lies were coming out and you know I may have I mean I called her a racist pig the last time I spoke to her and just put the phone down and that was the last contact I had. And I've written maybe, you know, fifty post cards just with the dates of you know, she does this in 1984; she does this in 1986 and abortions this and that, but that's all, just to make the postman read it so the postman tells the whole town because I want her punished. People must know what she's all about because don't forget
TS. I can tell you that all the neighbours and people around her know.
F. Well I spoke to two of the neighbours on the phone about two years ago. And they themselves hadn't read the newspapers. But I sent them myself, full details - about nine pages - so they know the full story from my point of view, but I did say to one woman, "Can you please not believe the newspapers when they say I've threatened to kill her son because I have not" and you know that boy likes me very, very, very much indeed. Heidi wrote and told me so. And if is she trying to tell everybody she lets her son go around telling everybody what a nice friend he has in England when two years before he's threatened to kill the boy? That's nonsense. She would say - keep away from this boy, we'll have no contact with him. You know - he's threatened to kill him and she will keep him away at every opportunity; not let him sit on my knee and play with me and kiss me. It just doesn't make sense because allegations of threats to kill and obviously rape can put me in prison and that's why maybe in exposing her other people won't try this, but I know with those kind of allegations flying around my liberty is at stake and I have to do something about it. All right Torill take care and have a restful week.
TS. Thank you.
F. All right then.
F. Bye bye.
On the 19th January 1998 I telephoned Deputy Police Chief Dag Einar Lyngås:-
F. Yes, hello, good morning, my name's Frederick.
F. Torill Sorte gave me your telephone number and told me that you have been dealing with this case.
F. I'm finding it quite hard to get some evidence about [that which has] been written in the newspapers and I was wondering if you could help me get it?
DL. What do want? You want the evidence?
F. Yes, these newspaper articles
DL. What articles are you talking about? In Norwegian paper?
F. Yes, that's right. In Bergens Tidende, Drammens Tidende and Verdens Gang, yeah.
DL. Today or
F. No, no, no in 1995.
DL. Oh yeah . I don't know er maybe it's in what you call the case have some copies of the articles but er
F. Well it's just that I myself sent the articles to Torill Sorte and there were some very serious allegations being made in those newspaper articles by Heidi.
DL. But I understand that you also now write letters to Heidi.
F. Oh yes, that's right. I want to know the answers to these serious allegations threats to kill her son, rape. I want the police evidence [regarding her allegation] that a Bergen shopkeeper also raped her .threats to kill her neighbours, sexual harassment, all this sort of rubbish that was written in the newspapers that isn't true. And my reason for asking this is because there is no evidence that exists to indicate this and I myself want to take proceedings against her for perverting the course of justice. But the reason I've written angry letters to her is because no one is giving me the answers to these questions that I've been asking for years and obviously I show my disgust and hatred for this woman by telling her in writing. And I don't see what's wrong with that.
DL. Well the police in Norway want that you have to stop this writing to Heidi Schøne.
F. I'll stop writing once she tells me where the evidence is for threats she says I've made to kill her son. You see the police have had two years to look into this and I have had no answers and I obviously have to keep trying to get in touch with Heidi.
F. So that she explains it, because you see Torill Sorte said to me "You must do this the proper way". Well I've tried the proper way when I went to see Heidi in [February] 1990 - she makes up stories that I've made more threats and then I'm arrested so I can't even talk to her and when we were in the police station and the police officer asked me what can we do to resolve this case and I said, "Well let me sit down with you and Heidi- just the three of us- then I'll show to you that Heidi is a liar." The policeman came back to me and said, "Heidi doesn't want to talk to you." So she gets away with it every time. I must have her confronted with these allegations.
DL. If you should . You can't get this evidence from me, I don't know er but if you want this articles from the newspaper you have to
F. No, I do have them - I have the original newspapers myself.
F. But I've asked Torill Sorte to look into it but she hasn't come up with, you know, satisfactory answers at all and it's not good enough and I must have some one look into this for me.
DL. But you have to get a lawyer who can look at this. The Norwegian authorities we maybe will send this to the British authorities for, to, of what do you call it um
F. For extradition?
DL. Yes to get a trial in England, or
F. A trial for what?
DL. Well, er, we mean you have threatened Heidi Schøne with your letters and things.
F. Yeah when?
DL. When? A lot times. You have send her several letters.
F. Threatening what?
DL. Threatening and what you call she can't talk I don't know the English word for it... er... you had disturb her private life, you understand that?
F. Of course I understand that but the thing is you see she's tried to ruin my life by saying I've attempted to rape her or even raped I think it's rape now. I think she's changed her story to rape you see and that's why I have to have some answers because I believe Heidi is a very, very sick woman and I've tried to be reasonable for years about this. I've asked for the authorities in Norway to supply the evidence that she's gone to the police in the 80's saying that a Bergen shopkeeper had tried to rape her. She's told me her cousin was raped and killed. She's told me that tourists in Greece tried to rape her in 1981 and now I find myself the subject of an allegation of either attempted rape or rape. Now also she says I've threatened to kill her son in a letter and no one can find this letter. She says the Bergen police have this letter but they deny it. OK - I've never made such threats - never. She says I've threatened to kill her neighbours if they don't give me her secret addresses so I've asked which neighbours and for statements from the neighbours as to these allegations and nothing has come forward, you see now I must have the answers to information that I'm entitled to and the reason I'm writing letters to her is to get this information.
DL. But the police in Norway not allow you to write to Heidi Schøne. We have all your letters at the police.
F. Yes, I know that, I know that.
DL. You have to stop this writing now or if not we have to send the case to the local authorities [I think he meant British authorities].
F. Yeah, well I've taken legal advice here in England as you probably know and I'll be most happy to attend any case. I even offered to go to Norway two years ago to Torill Sorte just to sit down with Heidi and sort this out.
DL. We don't want you to come to Norway. If you come to Norway we maybe going to arrest you and do the case in Norway.
F. Yeah, I thought so. So, Torill Sorte told me that you'd tried to get me over to Norway. You'd taken advice from the English authorities and they have said that they can do nothing to help you. Is that right? That there'll be no extradition, no trial, nothing. Is that right?
DL. Can you repeat that?
F. Torill Sorte
F. She told me that the authorities in Oslo have contacted the authorities in England and asked them whether I can be sent to Norway. Yeah? Are you with me?
DL. Yes. I don't know nothing about that.
DL. Because I haven't know the case for so long time.
F. OK. She says that the case is with someone in Oslo. Is that right?
DL. No, the case is with me now.
F. Oh, with you?
F. Oh. So how long have you had it?
DL. Three, four months.
F. And who had it in Oslo?
DL. Maybe one of the District Attorneys.
F. And what do he do?
DL. Send it back to me
F. Oh, God. So have you been trying to see if you can extradite me? Extradite me. Make me go to Norway.
DL. No, we don't want you to go to Norway.
F. For trial?
DL. No, we don't want you to come here at all.
F. For trial? Huh?
DL. No. We don't want you to come to Norway. A trial we want maybe send it to England or
F. So, do you actually read the letters I write?
DL. No, I haven't read all the letters you write.
F. Because they're asking basically the same thing, all of them: That I don't get treated like a complete idiot and you give me the answers [to the questions I'm putting] to the allegations that have been made against me in the newspapers and by Heidi to the police. Now it's very naughty of all of you to start saying I'm harassing her when you know perfectly well she's been in a psychiatric unit and has a very poor sexual history, when you know all I want is information as to the allegations that have been made against me obviously eventually I'm going to get so sick of it that I'm going to start getting some revenge. Because I'm not going to stand this stress on me and my mother reading this rubbish in the newspapers.
DL. But now you are threatening Schøne.
F. I'm threatening Schøne?
F. Who, Runar Schøne?
DL. Heidi, Heidi.
F. Threatening with that? I've just said to her
DL. You are aggressive. Have to take some step
F. Aggressive? I'm not aggressive? She's wicked. I must have answers to her allegations and I need to talk to her face to face. She avoids talking to me because she knows she can't deal with the answers. Now I've tried quietly to ring them up to talk sensibly about it and
DL. But she don't want to talk to you.
F. No, no, no obviously they don't want to talk to me because they're wicked deceitful liars and people who are like that they don't want to talk. I want some evidence. I want to talk to them. Now if you can't get the evidence then I will try. You can't supply the evidence that I've been trying for 2½ years to get so you know I have to try myself.DL. If you want to look at the evidence you have to go to a lawyer.
F. A lawyer. Yeah. That's right. I've been to a lawyer in Bergen but he only mentioned the business of attempted rape. Now can you tell me please, because Heidi spoke again to Torill Sorte, what is the latest on this? Is it attempted rape or rape?
DL. I can't answer that because I haven't look at the paper.
F. OK, I'll phone you back this afternoon.
DL. Oh no! I can't do it today. You have to come back in two, three weeks.
F. Oh. Well that's another three weeks of stress for me isn't it?
DL. The thing is to leave the whole thing as it is now and stop writing these letters and stop calling the police, Heidi Schøne
F. Well obviously I can't do that because I want Heidi shown up to the world for the liar that she is. And if you think that she can just make allegations that are totally false I mean, you amaze me. You know I'm trying to get evidence - which doesn't exist of course - that um I'm trying to prove she's a liar as to these threats to kill the son, the neighbours, the rape and you are telling me to forget about it. It's just ludicrous. And I'm not going to because a woman like that is pure evil. She's your Norwegian blonde and I'm just the "worthless" Muslim. You know I've read the newspapers and fourteen times they mention "the Muslim man". I was better to Heidi than any man she's ever met. And if you'd read the letters that she's written to me then you can see that I have a point. I want all evidence surrounding Heidi and I want her interviewed properly. Unless she's interviewed properly then I will continue to make public her past throughout the whole of Norway and I'll do it very big. You're gonna have a lot of people contacting you - you have to do something to get to the bottom of this.
DL. Well as I said to you
F. Use a lawyer, yeah. I will use a lawyer, but will the lawyer be able to get the answers to these questions? Will the lawyer be able to interview Heidi herself?
DL. No, the Police will interview Heidi, if necessary.
F. "If necessary". That's right - that's the problem - "if necessary" you see and I must say that unless those answers come back to me clearly and once those answers come you will have to prosecute her for perverting the course of justice and I will carry this on for years if necessary because I've really had enough and I'll make it public, every inch of the way if you don't get this evidence that Heidi says exists that I've threatened to kill her son in a letter OK. And if the lawyer can't do this, then I'll carry on.
I spent hundreds of pounds on lawyers here in 1990 in London and they didn't get very far with the police. We got no information on this attempted rape. It was on file and I wasn't told until I found out in 1995 through my Bergen lawyer and my Bergen lawyer refused to go any further into the matter of attempted rape because he said Commander Krogvold in Bergen might re-open the case. So I said to my lawyer, Wesenberg - I have not attempted to rape the woman - go ahead and find the information and he refused.
DL. Is the case of rape a case in Bergen?
F. Yes, it was the Bergen police station [and I told him the story]
DL. But the case of rape, I have not the case. This is Bergen you have to
F. Yes, I have contacted them and Commander Krogvold refuses to talk to me about it. Now my lawyer has written and told me "attempted rape". Torill Sorte is now telling me Heidi has told her "rape".
DL. You can't discuss that case with me. You have to go to the police in Bergen.
F. Yeah, but Torill Sorte has already discussed the case with Heidi but she said she couldn't remember [about the case in detail anymore] because the papers were now with you.
DL. I don't know if the paper about the rape is with me.
F. Well they should be because Torill Sorte told me they were. But anyway, I've got a long list of questions but you obviously won't answer them direct to me will you?
DL. Oh, I just want to answer a lawyer and I don't want to discuss the evidence with you [or] your lawyer. I just can give him a copy of the paper in the case. I don't discuss the evidence.
F. Oh, you don't, so I can't even see the evidence?
DL. You can see what the police have but I won't discuss it with you.
F. Right OK. When my lawyer eventually contacts you, will you see fit to question Heidi about threats to kill her son, her neighbours, sexual harassment, obscene words, 400 obscene letters?
DL. As I said I will do it if I think it's necessary.
F. Can you tell me now?
DL. No, I can't, I don't have the paper.
F. OK. All right. Well I've tried to write to Heidi and any person who's right - if she's right - she can simply write back to me and say this is a copy of the letter [in which] you threatened to kill my son; here are the names of the neighbours who you threatened to kill and can simply write this like any normal person can, but don't start telling me I mustn't write to her because I want this information. It costs lots of money to use a lawyer and you're making me spend money - hundreds of pounds in phone calls and using lawyers just because of this lying woman. Now she's the one who's been in a psychiatric unit, not me. She's tried to kill herself twice; she's slept with someone taking heroin now can't you see for God's sake that this woman is a liar? I may have told her to go to hell. I may have told her to drop dead. I may have told her she's a worthless piece of shit but any man would. So would you. If any woman threatened you like this I know you'd do the same, OK.
DL. I think what you are doing is not legal.
F. Is it legal and nice to say in the newspapers that I'm insane, that I've written 400 obscene letters; that I do obscene things in front of her making her watch; write obscene words on her door; threaten to kill her son, threaten to kill her neighbours and I'm "the Muslim man, the Muslim man" - every paragraph. You think that's legal as well do you? If you think I'm going to take this then you've gotta think again because I'm not.
F. All right. I shall have to spend a few hundred pounds more, no doubt, contacting a lawyer in Drammen and first of all they'll want money and then they'll read the case; then they'll probably say they won't help me. And then I find another lawyer and on and on it goes. In the meantime, I will not stop making public Heidi's past - until the newspapers apologise on their front pages. Hm?
DL. I heard what you're saying.
F. OK. All right all the best and thanks for listening to me. And I shall - can I actually - the spelling of your name, your surname. It's - I know it's [pronounced] Lyngås but what's the er ["spelling", I was about to say].
DL. What are you going to use that for?
F. Well first of all I want to get it [the spelling] right, because I have to tell my Drammen lawyer.
DL. You can get my title - it's Assistant Chief of Police.
F. Don't worry, I'm not gonna make your name public.
DL. I'm not afraid about that.
F. No, that's OK, I won't do that. You're at which police station?
DL. Drammen [and he gave me the address].
F. All right, I'll get down to getting in touch with yet another lawyer and if the answers come out then maybe we'll get somewhere, but we'll have to wait and see how things go. All right, thanks very much.
On 1st April 1998, I telephoned Torill Sorte of the Mjøndalen police:-
F. Well you'll be pleased in a way to know that I've instructed a lawyer in
Norway. He's had my papers for a couple of months now but he's so busy
it'll still be probably at least another week before he can advise me, but I
understand that I've got rights to sue Heidi and also have her punished for
the lies she's been telling. But my lawyer says I have to come over to Norway
for that so we're gonna have to sort out this business of me making Heidi's
private life public. So somehow we'll have to overcome that. But the thing is,
I spoke to the Assistant Commissioner of Police in Drammen, Lyngås - and
he hasn't done anything.
TS. That's not right. He has done the case to the chief lawyers in Oslo.
F. Yeah, Yeah, against me but he hasn't answered those questions that I've asked you a list of questions you said that you passed on with the file to him but none of those questions have been dealt with at all and he just said that "We want to get you." So we had a quick chat and I told him that I've got a lawyer and he'll be in touch in due course if I suppose he thinks there's something he can help me with. The reason I'm ringing you is that I have to clarify one or two of these [answers to] questions that I've asked about Heidi because the policeman in Drammen doesn't want to ask Heidi these questions at all. Can you - is it rape or attempted rape that she's alleging? Most important I know this.
TS. She said that she didn't want to go to bed with you and you make her to do it and she was afraid. She tried to get away but she couldn't.......
But you see she don't tell me these because she want to get a case to you. She told me these because she will give me a picture of what a person you are.
F. Yeah, that's right, but I am not that person. I mean what did she actually say? Did I when she says I forced her - what exactly did I do? What is she saying?
TS. I mean she said you er
F. I held her down or I threatened her or what? Come on, she must have told you?
TS. Yes she told me.
F. Yeah, what did she say? Go on.
TS. Er I can't remember exactly what she said. I mean to remember that she said that you hold her.
F. I held her down?
F. What, by the throat or what? The arms, the hair?
TS. That I don't remember. I think it was her hand, but I can't remember.
TS. I'm sorry about that. Because you see I wrote it down in my report and I put it into Oslo months ago.
F. Well it's down there in writing anyway.
F. Good. I can tell you something. Heidi's a very strong girl. If she doesn't want a chap to have sex with her, there's no way he can do it, because she will struggle like hell. And you know "held her down by the hands" is an absolute load of nonsense and I'm prepared to stand up in Court and swear on oath exactly what happened, you see. But is she saying it's rape or attempted rape? Which one is it?
TS. She said it was rape.
F. Yeah, OK. So my lawyer in telling me it was "attempted rape" - you have his letter - he's not right then?
TS. I have his letter?
F. Yeah, I sent you the first page of my lawyer's letter - Wesenbgerg.
TS. Oh yes.
F. And it's got "attempted rape", hasn't it?
F. So obviously
TS. But you see I see you mean this is a big case what this is and it's a rape. But Heidi has never come to me and said I will get you in the Court, so we can
F. No, not you, no, but she did go in 1986 to the Bergen Police and tell them "attempted" [rape].
TS. I haven't seen this sort of question.
F. Well, why do you think Wesenberg wrote to me? Can't you just read Wesenberg's letter. In 1986 she went to the Bergen Police, 20 months after I last stayed with her. Twenty months after I had sex with her she went and complained. But it was two or three weeks after I told either her parents or Johannessen's parents that he was taking heroin. And about the abortions and all the rest of it the miscarriages. Right? She did that out of revenge. Now if she goes to the Bergen Police and tells them I've attempted to rape her, then the next time I'm in Norway, I could get into serious trouble. Obviously, because it's an arrestable offence and I'm sure if she'd had her way she'd have me held in the police custody and go to the Magistrates' Court. So that's the reason I've got revenge against her 'cos when I read those words "attempted rape", I thought, well, if you wanna tell such filthy lies, then I'll teach you a lesson. But the thing is you see, she's also gone to the police before, about that Bergen shopkeeper who again she said raped her and I am going to get details of that complaint. Because I'm building a picture about Heidi saying that she's a scheming, manipulative little liar and there's no way I am going to take this accusation of attempted rape - she's said it about Greek men on holiday - her cousin was raped and killed in Norway, so I think it will be quite easy for me to stand up in Court and convince the Judge that she's a bloody liar.
TS. I don't think so.
F. Why not?
TS. Because you have done some things about your letters, about the way you have - the letters you have sent to her and so on.
F. Yeah, what's wrong with them?
F. What's so wrong with them?
TS. The wrong thing is that you have sent many letters to people in Norway that write her name and put her picture on it.
F. Yeah good No, no, no, - it was the newspaper's picture. She put her picture in the newspapers. I'm only using their picture. She told the whole of Norway about my [so-called] private life without mentioning my name OK. What it was, I sent that [report]. First of all it was to no more than twenty of her neighbours. Twenty - where she used to live.
TS. Lots of letters. I don't know how many.
F. Yeah, yeah - [sent] after the newspapers [came out]. But before the newspapers [came out] no more than twenty [reports in Norwegian about Heidi's past]. Immediately she tells the whole of Norway through the newspapers.
TS. How you like that?
TS. How do you like that?
F. How do I what?
TS. If someone you know write things about you who you don't want anyone to know and send it to your neighbours, to your post office, to your school, to your theatre and so on - you like that?
F. Well I basically wouldn't have done the things that she's um [done in her private life].
TS. She didn't name your name in the newspapers. You used her name and you used her husband's name and you used her
F. Yeah, but no, no. Her husband and her they put their name in the newspapers. They waived their rights to anonymity. Because if their name is in the newspapers then I have a right to tell everybody these two people that were in the newspapers, by their names, are liars and that they've done this and that and the other. It's only after the newspapers printed their story
TS. But do you mean it's right if I have picked up your name in a newspaper and I don't like what you are writing, I could have write different things about you and send it to your neighbours and call them - that would have been OK?
F. The newspapers do that here [I intended to convey the message of the existence of the right to freedom of speech and the right to reply].
TS. But we don't do that in Norway and it's not allowed.
F. Well the thing is you see, if people want to go behaving like liars and perverts and massive cheats and they don't want anyone else to know, well I think that's fraud. That's really doing what you want and being able to cover it up. The point is, I must have some legal redress for the [allegation of] attempted rape. But not only that, you see, if I hadn't done what I did [i.e. send those 20 or so initial reports about her past to her neighbours], then I wouldn't have known what she's capable of - [making false allegations, accusing me of] threatening to kill her son; now I think that's far more serious a lie than anything I've ever done. After all, all I've told is the truth. You see, I have told 100 per cent [the truth].
TS. She don't say that.
F. No, no, but I do and
TS. You say she's a liar and she says you are a liar. She has told me that she has told you things about her that she didn't want anyone to know because it will hurt her and you told it. And she says that's the wrong she did to tell you things, because she thought she could trust you.
F. Well the thing is this, you see, you're talking as if she's a poor honest little girl.
TS. I don't.
F. But the thing is you see, as far as I'm concerned, all that trust is gone once she starts alleging attempted rape because to me - or rape - that is the worst thing to do and if she thinks I'm gonna keep quiet after that allegation and if she thinks I'm gonna keep quiet after [an allegation of] threatening to kill her poor little son - actually it's his birthday today, he's 12 - and if she thinks I'm gonna keep quiet after that what the newspapers said, everything in there was complete rubbish and lies. It wasn't as if she told even the truth about me. There wasn't one thing in there that was true, Ok. So I mean, if I had a criminal conviction or if I'd done this, done that and the other and it was true, OK. But she made up things 'cos she didn't have a damn thing on me. I am still sure I can get her. Even if the lawyer tells me it's 50/50 I will still try. I want that girl punished.
TS. But as I told you, the case we had in Norway here where Heidi told things to me and I wrote it down and I send it to my chief in Drammen and he send it through to Oslo. That case is put away because we don't want to do anything more with it now. As I have told you, if you come to Norway and if you try to contact Heidi and if you don't stop it, we have to do something with it because it has now gone thirteen years, now fourteen and she wants peace.
F. She wants peace? What are you talking about? In 1990 she was trying to manoeuvre me into marriage if I became Christian. She wants peace!
TS. You told me that. She don't tell me that.
F. Fair enough. So answer this then. Does she deny that in 1988 she asked me and my friend to come up to Norway to deal with Gudmund Johannessen? Does she deny this?
TS. No, she don't deny that.
F. She admits it?
F. Oh, good. That's one thing. OK. So why does she ask me to do this when in 1986 [she now alleges] I've raped her?
TS. Because she want to be your friend.
F. Oh, oh so in spite of my "raping"
TS. And that she don't want to be your boyfriend and so on, she want to be your friend. And only that. Her side is that you don't understand what she want. And you don't stop when she says I don't want to be your boyfriend.
F. Well that thing is you see, she wants one time, she doesn't want the next; she tells me she doesn't want Gudmund Johannessen to be her boyfriend. She's a sick woman. She goes from one man to the next. She's got a whole history of sexual partners.
TS. That's her case. She can do what she wants. You can't stop her with that.
F. If she asks me for help and er earlier on and all the rest of it and earlier on her psychiatrist told me I was "her favourite" at one stage. I'm not in Norway, I can't see her every day, you see and as soon as some other man she meets is with her for a few days she starts falling in love with him The thing is she doesn't like Muslims and that in itself probably put her off in the end but I think the main thing is the attempted rape and the threats to kill her son. You said that she sent a letter to the Bergen police didn't you about threatening to kill her son, now
TS. No, she was talk with the police in Bergen but the parents to Johannessen wouldn't talk to the police and I think it was they who get the letter there if I don't remember wrong!! They took the letter with this threat to the police.
F. They took a letter?
TS. I think so; I don't think it was her.
F. So where is the letter?
TS. As I told you before, I have written to the police in Bergen and they don't have it. They have er throw it away or so on.
F. Aah! They've thrown it away!
TS. They say. They say to me - I have ask to see the case and they say they can't give me the letters because they throw it away.
F. Yeah. Do they remember seeing such a letter with a threat to kill the son? The police - do they remember?
TS. They remember it was many letters but they don't remember what was in it.
F. This one specific letter which is so important. Threats to kill a two [year old boy].
TS. It's so long a time ago.
F. Yes, but surely there must be one if they took that letter to I mean was that letter addressed to Heidi or was it addressed to Johannessen?
TS. I don't remember. I thought it was to Johannessen, but I
F. Right, so I mean that's absolutely ludicrous. I threaten I write a letter to Johannessen's parents threatening to kill Daniel do I? Jesus Christ! Well I tell you that's in[sane].
TS. I don't remember so I can't say.
F. Well someone's gonna have to remember because
TS. I have tried. You can call the police in Bergen and I have called I don't know how many times - but I have called them many times and asked after the letters and if they can do something with it or I can talk to the investigator, but they can't help me. So I don't know.
F. So it sounds as if you can't do anything - it's not worth me trying.
TS. You can try.
F. Well I have, haven't I? No, but if you can't succeed, I certainly won't.
TS. No, I don't think so the last thing they said to me was the letters was thrown away and they was sorry about that.
F. What, a really vital piece of evidence was thrown away? Well that's not very good of the police is it?
TS. No, that's not very good.
F. Not really, no. Particularly as most of those letters were really nothing anyway and I never said it, so
TS. I haven't read them.
F. Well OK, what about threats to kill the neighbours? Have you found out which neighbours, um - which neighbours - have you gone and asked which neighbours?
TS. I have talked to Heidi and I have talk to some of the people who live around her now but they admit they have get some phones from you.
F. Well obviously, yes, there's been one or two but no threats to kill them.
TS. But they have said they don't want to talk to you.
F. Oh, they don't want to talk to me -Oh that's the Weums [the family living beneath Heidi]. Obviously I haven't threatened to kill them, have I?
F. No, because they don't even speak to me in English.
TS. Oh maybe
F. There was one other I think that I phoned just to tell them if they'd heard anything about [the story] and they hadn't and I said well she's told the newspapers I've threatened to kill her son and I told them I just want you to know that I certainly have not.
TS. But what do want now? I don't understand I don't have the case anymore.
F. You see, you're the one that my lawyer will get in touch with 'cos you have interviewed Heidi and you will probably have to go back and talk to her again OK. And it's these questions that I want answering because I'm basically building up a picture that she's a very unstable woman and a complete liar - and it is those answers I need to help me in my case - because I will bring it, I can tell you. If allegations have been made that I've threatened to kill the neighbours, then Heidi must supply those names and those neighbours must come forward, even if they're forced to by a Summons, to actually say whatever
TS. If I get some letters of these or a report or something, I will do that yes - I will do that.
F. Good, OK, because you will find not a single neighbour has been [threatened with death].
TS. Then I need to get the lawyers in Oslo to re-open the case.
F. Re-open the case?
F. Against me? Yeah, yeah, OK. I got you, yeah. [What I think she meant was that they would need the file to look at all the documents] You see you won't find any neighbours that I've threatened. And also her friends. Again, Heidi must come forward with the names of the friends. She must be forced to divulge the names of the friends and then these friends again will have to swear, to swear on oath that I've threatened to kill them and again you will find nothing.
TS. But why can't you put this case away now?
F. Why? Well basically I think, er
TS. I understand you're hurt.
F. I think it's more than that. That kind of thing must never be allowed to happen again. That's an evil wicked thing she's done over
TS. I don't think you can stop that.
F. Over thirteen years especially the business about her sleeping with a guy taking heroin.
TS. That's her problem.
F. Well yeah - does she admit to that?
F. Does she admit to that?
TS. She says she has done stupid things in her life and I
F. Does she admit to the heroin?
TS. I haven't talked to her about that.
F. Well you should've done because it's one of the main things.
TS. That's not my business if she has done er
F. Well it will be your business because I'll ask my lawyer to make sure you do ask her that. So, I mean
F. Why? Because I want
TS. How do you and I have something to do with something she has done 13 years ago.
F. Well it's because it's one of the reasons I wrote to her a very strong letter and got angry with her and it's the reason I went over in 1990 to have words with her because I didn't have the chance beforehand and why I was arrested. I wasn't arrested because I want to commit serious crimes. I was arrested because she made it up because I wrote to Johannessen's parents and spilled the beans and they found out about everything and it caused Heidi awful problems. That was the reason she made up the lies about me "threatening" the lives of "Norwegian citizens". I mean it's ridiculous. If I want to do something, I can't achieve a damn thing over the phone because she puts the phone down every time or she hasn't got a phone. So when I go over to try and sort it out in person, I get these massive allegations -and I'm not having it. I'm not used to dealing with such garbage. I mix usually with "slightly" [I was being mildly sarcastic] more decent people and it's a big shock to me to see what was going on there. And I think myself that a lot of people want to know what's going on. I mean stories like this between me and Heidi sell books. And I think that it's in the public interest that people know what's going on. Also her husband - you say he's an OK sort of guy. Have you asked him whether he said to me that "Allah doesn't exist - come to Jesus - only he can save you" and speaking to me in tongues? Has he admitted to that?
F. Have you asked him?
F. And what did he say?
TS. He laughed.
F. Oh did he? OK do you want me to get my mother to give you a call to say that she heard him?
TS. No, you don't need to do that. As I told you, I don't have the case now.
F. No, that's right. But the point is this: what he [Runar Schøne] did over the phone was the sort of thing that only comes from a madman OK. "Allah doesn't exist - come to Jesus - only he can save you". Only that sort of stuff comes from a bloody madman OK and my mother heard it.
TS. So what!
F. So what? It builds up a case that these people are crazy because you don't believe it OK. Either I'm lying OK or he is. So, who do you think's lying?
TS. I don't I won't answer that because as I told you earlier, I have taken the case; I have talked to Heidi, her husband, I've talked to you several times and I've written down what I have heard, what I have seen and so on and that's my job. I don't have the need to answer who is lying or so I know that in a case with two people is always someone who's lying.
F. So if I get my mother to put in an affidavit (a) that she heard this and (b) that um that's another thing Heidi is saying - that my own mother wants to put me in a mental hospital - another amazing piece of rubbish. I'll get my mother to swear [an affidavit denying that].
TS. So do it. For me it's the same. I don't have a case now. Everything I will send to
F. Fair enough, at least I've sorted it out in my own mind. Anyway, I just want to get it straight again. When you asked him about speaking in tongues and this business about Allah doesn't exist, he denied it, basically?
TS. He didn't say that - he only laughed.
F. Oh did he? So, so did you get the impression that he was denying it?
TS. No he yes! I would say that.
F. Yeah, OK, good. We've sorted that one out. What about the "400 obscene letters". Did anyone else see them? She said in the newspapers there were 400 obscene letters I've sent [all of which she said she'd destroyed].
TS. I've seen some of them and some is in the case [Torill Sorte misunderstood me here. As the newspapers had said all 400 were destroyed, then she couldn't have seen any of them].
F. Yeah, but [and I was not now referring to the "400 obscene letters" the newspapers mentioned but to other letters with Torill Sorte] I wouldn't say they're obscene. They're not dirty sex talk' they're basically talking about her life - her sex life.
TS. That's not nice what you are writing I think.
F Yeah, but they're not obscene.
TS. No, no if you lie it is.
TS. If the thing you have written in the letters is not the truth.
F. If it's not the truth it's a lie. But as I've told you, I have told the truth - 100 per cent.
TS. Yes, I don't know that.
F. No, you don't know that but I do and God knows it and so does Heidi and in a human Court of Law the burden of proof is such that you have to do your best. But I know it, Heidi knows it, God knows it. But also Heidi was with her husband when he was talking such nonsense over the phone and I'm sure once we get a psychiatric report on Heidi
TS. I don't think you will get that.
F. Well I'll certainly try hard I can tell you he [Heidi's psychiatrist, Dr. Broch] told me long ago that it is possible to get psychiatric evidence from a Court Order and I'll certainly be trying 100 per cent for that, particularly as I've had a couple of your psychiatrists go on about erotic paranoia amongst Muslims - which again - you know - is unforgivable.
TS. But you know we can talk and talk and talk.
F. Yeah, I've talked enough and when my lawyer advises me he'll be in touch but it'll probably be after Easter.
TS. You can tell your lawyer he can call me or come here also and I can talk to him and I can answer the questions he wants to know.
F. Sure, sure, I'll tell him that. But I've told him it's Heidi that has to be cross-examined, not you.
TS. No, but I can talk to him.
F. Yeah, OK.
F. Thanks very much. Bye.
TS. Bye bye.
On 22nd April 1998, I spoke to Torill Sorte of the Mjøndalen police again:-
F. Now you've told me that in 1985 after Christmas, that she's telling you
that she had a boyfriend, yeah?
TS. That she has a boyfriend? Oh, yes when you come and visit her?
TS. Yes, she has a boyfriend. She was together with the father of her son wasn't she?
F. Yeah - was this after my first visit or before my second visit or in between, do you know roughly?
TS. I seem to remember that she said she had a boyfriend when you went to visit her the second time [April 1985].
F. The second time, yeah. Was this the only boyfriend she had?
TS. At that moment? Yeah, I think so.
F. Yeah. So she didn't tell you that she was also have sexual relations with another man?
F. No. Well, she was having sexual relations with a chap I knew, called Bjorn-Morten and he also thought he was the father of Daniel, you see. So it's not really honest of Heidi to say that she had a boyfriend, because she was sleeping with two men at the same time.
TS. Maybe she have two boyfriends.
F. Yeah that's right and she also - I visited her -  and then she had another boy visit her from England who used to be her boyfriend in England, so it's
TS. You say that but she don't say that.
F. Yes, well I know both these men and Heidi knows she visited him [i.e. the boyfriend she used to have here in St. Albans] after I visited her for the second time. I mean he saw her parents; her parents saw him. I mean there's no dispute about that. She knows who he is - an Italian boy. She may not have told you this but there were actually four of us who were seeing her in this time after Christmas and up to Easter 1985. So she was sleeping with two of them and I visited her and then another chap so, you know, she liked lots of men so it's not really fair to say that she had a boyfriend because she said the only thing that she had in common with Gudmund Johannessen was 'good sex' and you know with her personality and background it's not really love. I don't think you can call it love because you don't have two boyfriends on the go at the same time. Because this other chap, Bjorn-Morten, was a good-looking chap and I knew she liked him because when I visited her at Christmas she told me she liked him and she wanted to be friends with him and they met and I met him - you know - he's a nice chap. He's now got - he had quadruplets. His wife gave birth to four at once - anyway Heidi obviously didn't tell you about Bjorn-Morten did she? Huh?
TS. No, I can't remember.
F. No that's right. Well that's something obviously that's a little bit sneaky of Heidi because - I'm trying to prove that she is a bit of a slut.
TS. But you don't have anything to do with that.
F. No, I don't but my point is that she's hiding things from you and you know everybody says that [I] can't be telling the truth about these things - it's too much.
TS. Yes, but you know if a case come to the Court in Norway, it's the way that things Heidi have done in her early life - the Court don't have anything to do with. The only thing they have to care about is the things happening between you and her. So other things are her things and the Court and people in Norway don't have anything to do with that.
F. Yeah, but my point is that she's a liar and she hides things.
TS. But you can't prove it by trying to tell that she's a hooker and
F. Well she's not paid but she likes sleeping with a lot of men.
TS. Maybe that's right, that she have three or four boyfriends at the same time, but I don't have anything to do with that.
F. But the point is you see I am trying to tell people her past and I have not lied about it and my case is that she told the whole country about me.
TS. Yes, that's her right.
F. Doesn't matter! She still told lies about me and one or two people did know it was me, the people I knew in Norway.
TS. They know about the case before it goes in the newspaper didn't they?
F. Well they didn't know obviously there were allegations I'd threatened to kill her son and neighbours and that I've written 400 obscene letters and they were quite shocked and I'm sure one or two of them maybe believed it and it's a hard job for me to disprove it. I've been told by one or two Norwegians that are very sympathetic to me that the story wouldn't have been printed if I was not a Muslim.
TS. No, that's not true.
F. Oh I think it certainly is.
TS. I don't think so
F. One or two Norwegians tell me that people are brought up in Norway from a young age to think that Muslims are basically 'heathen' - that they are really awful rubbish because they are not Christian. Even one of the first letters Heidi sent me in the early 80's was to say basically what a load of rubbish Muslims were. She told me how angry she thought her parents would be if they thought she was marrying a Muslim man and also for her husband to tell me "Allah doesn't exist, come to Jesus" - all these things, it's so obvious that Muslims are not liked in Norway.
TS. They are. Some people don't like Muslims but some people don't like Catholics or
F. Yeah, but the thing is these people are telling me voluntarily that the story wouldn't have been published if "you weren't Muslim "
TS. I don't think you shall think about that because I don't think it's right. I think that the newspapers have written about this because they have found the things [that have been] said to them interesting not because you are a Muslim.
F. Yeah but they also said to me that this little sheet in Norwegian that I've sent to everybody, they said they didn't believe it - it was crap.
TS. No, they don't believe it. People call me and say what this - what crap this is is.
F. That's right exactly. Has she admitted for instance that she's had two abortions?
TS. No, but I haven't anything to do with that.
F. No, but you see
TS. I can't ask her about that - those things I don't want to know.
F. The newspapers have said it was this one sheet that they have said is crap. Now what exactly is crap about it? What's wrong about it? What is a lie about it?
TS. What's wrong is that you are writing things about that. Maybe some of the things is true, maybe something is lie, I don't know. The point is that you have writing letters with her picture and her name and you send it to people around Norway. [Heidi's photo was transposed from the newspaper on to my fact sheet and then distributed all over Norway].
F. No, no, no - that was after the newspapers printed the story.
TS. No, no - it was then the case came into the police, not before.
F. So what am I supposed to do when she say's I've threatened to kill her son?
TS. You should have gone to the police and give the police a case and send it to Norway.
F. I did, I did many times.
TS. What happened with that?
F. Absolutely nothing. I sent everything to the Norwegian Embassy here in London at the time and Iver Stensrud - one of the attachés and I have a letter from him on my file and he said all he could do is send everything on to Krogvold in Bergen. I have sent everything to Bergen.
TS. I have never seen that.
F. No, no in Bergen, I sent
TS. But I have never seen them - never. I haven't heard about the Embassy taking a contact with me and all that.
F. Not with you, but with [Krogvold in Bergen].
TS. Was that before I got the case?
F. I spoke to the Embassy here in London and they sent the papers to Bergen, not to you.
TS. I see, but have you talk to the Embassy after that?
F. Yes I did and eventually they said there was nothing [they] could do here - they've given everything to Krogvold - so I phoned up Krogvold and he said he's not going to do anything. So obviously when I see such injustice, then I began my campaign. But I told the newspapers - I sent my whole case to them and I expected an apology - I expected some understanding and I expected my side of the story to be printed. And I told them, OK, if you don't - you've got her letters [to me]; you've got [the story of] her past. I'm willing to discuss it. They discussed nothing. They were slimy little rats. So I said fair enough, if that's the way you wanna play; if you wanna play dirty with me then you see what happens. And I only sent the stuff afterwards, OK. So I've done my best to bring a Court case and don't forget I was using Helge Wesenberg in Norway at the time as the only reason I found out about these newspaper stories is because he sent me the [one] article which I had to pay for to get translated - I had to wait a long time before I got all three newspaper articles translated. And I had to pay for them.
TS. Me and you can talk all the day I think.
F. The point is what is Heidi saying I've lied about?
TS. Yes but as I told you what's lies and what's not lies and what you have said and what she has said is er
F. It's not the point? [I suggested]
TS. Yes, it is the point, but it is there and you and I have talked about these things many times but as I told you if you want to do something, I hope your lawyer will contact me and I'll talk to him and we can see the case together and see what we can do.
F. The thing is you see I feel you are going to try to put him off, aren't you?
TS. No, I will talk to him and I will listen to him and I hope he will listen to me when I tell him what I have done and where the case is and what's been done in the case and what the State lawyer is saying about it and I hope he can understand something of it. If he find things is wrong, that I have done something wrong, or the State police have done something wrong, I hope that I will do something with it.
F. Don't try and tell me that the newspapers are blameless. They're the ones who are at fault. Because if someone is accused of threatening to kill three sets of people - you know, a little boy- I'm not going to stand this. Also the rape. Something funny's going on. If Wesenberg tells me in 1995 "attempted rape" and it turns out to be rape, then I'm not having it. And I need to know which police station Heidi complained about the rape [attempted rape allegation concerning] the Bergen shopkeeper. I need to know which police station to get in touch with then because I need to support my evidence.
TS. But as I told you, I will give everything to your lawyer and he will look at the case and I'm sure he will give me his thoughts about it
F. You've said you've done your very best to find out about this so-called letter that I've written threatening to kill that little boy. Now why can't you get the Bergen police to get in touch with the parents of Johannessen [who Heidi says were sent 'the letter'].
TS. The Bergen police said that they get the letters.
F. "The letters" - many letters?
TS. I don't remember how many, but it was more than one. And they said they don't know where they are now. So I don't know what shall I do with this - they're gone.
F. The thing is this, when I was arrested in 1990, they had several letters in the police station.
TS. But they don't have any anymore.
F. Well they were copies so Heidi must have the originals.
TS. She don't have the originals. She have looked to her things and she can't find any. She throw it away when she have talked to the police because she think that Oh, I don't need them any more.
F. When I was with the police in 1990, no letters came up threatening to kill her son the police in 1990 had several of those letters but they did not ever tell me and they never mentioned once, anything about threatening to kill her son. Now this is a serious allegation and I'm sure that they knew about it at the time [i.e. one way or the other]. Now Krogvold, who is in charge of the case, he must remember if a letter came in saying I've threatened to kill that son - now I never wrote any letter and I'm gonna go all the way on this I won't have the public thinking that a 'Muslim man' threatens to kill little boys.
If Heidi says Gudmund Johannessen's parents had this letter, then the proper thing to do is to get back in touch with them. OK? Isn't that right?
TS. Yes, but I don't still have the letters. The letters is gone.
F. No, no, no. They will remember - if Gudmund Johannessen's parents had the letter, then they will remember if they saw the words threatening to kill that little boy, won't they?
TS. Yes, I thought you were talking to the police in Bergen about that, because
F. I've written, I've kept a copy of the letter. I've sent them everything. I've spoken to a very nice chap - another policeman, a chap called Henrik Dugstad
TS. If you come to Norway now, you will be arrested. But if we can come to an arrangement with your lawyer, then maybe you can come to Norway.
F. I think within two weeks he'll have spoken to you but to be honest I'm still campaigning against Heidi
TS. Yes I know that.
F. You still getting calls today are you?
F. Yeah, that's right - good. You see I want to make Norway in general [aware] - I want to raise the profile you will have to make Norwegians aware that a lot of Norwegian men do not treat their women well and that is obvious by this case between me and Heidi Also I'm very much against abortion. I like to publicise this. And the fact that many - so much cheating goes on that I think maybe half of Norway is on second marriages. The kids don't know who their fathers are or they take a long time to discover who their fathers are and I'm making a social statement as well, you see.
TS. Yes, but talk to your lawyer and we'll see what we can do.
F. Well OK. I'm prepared to come to an arrangement so long as I have my day in Court but I'm also worried that I'm not going to get a fair trial.
TS. Be sure we are doing that.
F. Because I know how the [Bergen] police treated me when I got back here to England [in February 1990].
TS. You have to believe the Court system - that it's fair.
F. The police certainly weren't
TS. No, maybe they don't.
F. I'm afraid and I've been told that Norwegians stick together against the foreigner.
TS. I don't think so.
F. No? Or families stick together anyway.
TS. Well blood is thicker than water isn't it?
F. Yeah, that's absolutely true. Quite right there. Well anyway, you must remember one or two things. What am I supposed to have lied about?
TS. I don't want to talk about that now. You can talk to your lawyer.
F. You see if you don't want to tell me, will you tell ['my lawyer' I was about to add].
TS. I have told you many times - what she has said; what she don't have said, what she has lied about.
F. Is she saying that her boyfriend didn't take heroin? Is she saying that she had no abortions?
TS. As I told you before, things Heidi have done in her life is not my thing. My thing about the case is between you and her and all the other things I don't have anything to do with it.
F. I read in the newspapers that Runar Schøne, her husband, said that these reports were "completely false", you see. So basically Heidi's private life is part of this case because what I'm saying is that it's not "completely false"; it's completely true, so these things have to be of concern to you. They are central to the case. When we have a Court case, the lawyers in the Court always try and talk about the past - the sexual past, the lies and everything about the Defendant.
TS. Ok but I will talk to your lawyer. I will explain to him what we are talking about and I feel that that's the right way to do things, so if you can get him to call me. OK.
F. OK Torill, thanks a lot, Bye bye.